[Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5
Doug Turnbull
turnbull at net1.ie
Sat Sep 22 12:03:21 EDT 2012
Dear OMs,
Thank you all for the information. The inverted L is runs 85 to 100
feet vertical and 47 to 32 feet in the horizontal depending on whether there
is a contest on. There are sixteen raised radials sloping up to sixteen
feet above ground and run through a small wood. These radials are over 120
ground radials of lengths up to sixty feet used for a SteppIR vertical.
The SteppIR big (80 - 6m) vertical is too close at 25 feet to the inverted
L but such is life and on TB I home the vertical.
Again, I thank all for the information.
73 Doug EI2CN
-----Original Message-----
From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of
hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com
Sent: 20 September 2012 23:18
To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4
(Robert Zavrel)
2. Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (Doug Turnbull)
3. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (Roger D Johnson)
4. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (kd9sv)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:58:54 -0700
From: Robert Zavrel <w7sx at live.com>
To: <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions]
Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4
Message-ID: <BLU170-W72EC4F5969ED25F7630D33E89A0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You can eliminate parasitic effects by eliminating ALL 1/2 wave (or close)
equivalent circuits coupled to the antenna. For example, a 1/4 wave
vertical, L network, coaxial line together with the ground system will
"look' like a 1/2 wave parasitic element. Switching the bottom of the
antenna (via a relay) out of the circuit will eliminate the parasitic
effects as a 1/4 wave conductor by itself has little effect. Shorting the
antenna to ground is NOT A GOOD IDEA, as it may create an excellent
parasitic element...much better to open up the base. IN the unlikely event
you are using a 1/2 wave vertical, you will need to detune it by inserting a
capacitor or inductor to ground to detune the resonant frequency. Assuming
the inverted L is an equivalent 1/4 wave, simply switching the antenna base
off the base tuner will do the job. Towers with grounded bases can be very
difficult if the tower is near electrical 1/4 wavelength (about 100 feet
high with antennas) for TB.
If you are using a short antenna (like 1/4 wave), you can use a heavy open
frame relay instead of a vaccuum relay, since this will be a low Z point
(high current, but low voltage), but seal it up against bugs and weather.
Also, an exellent cost effective substitute for vaccuum relays is offered as
Russian surplus: http://www.nd2x.net/ur4ll.html Dr. Alex is a good guy.
RF Relay >1000 W (for HF) open-frame relay, 24-27VDC coil (use for HV, e.g.
3kV 2A is no problem; NOTE: 20A at 30 MHz ) - $15
Plate with two installed - $30
Plate with four installed - $60
+ shipping from the Ukraine.
I've used these relays for several years and they are every bit as good as
vaccuum for high RF voltages and currents. The relay coils consume about 500
mA each, so you'll need a hefty control supply. Buy several to make it cost
effective with shipping....these are like gold for heavy RF switching.
Bob Zavrel, W7SX
> From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com
> Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4
> To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:00:09 -0400
>
> Send Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list submissions to
> hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
izantennas.com
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-owner at hizantennas.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Detuning antennas when using 4 square (Doug Turnbull)
> 2. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (kd9sv)
> 3. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (Roger D Johnson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:14:36 +0100
> From: "Doug Turnbull" <turnbull at net1.ie>
> To: <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
> Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
> 4 square
> Message-ID: <D4F87494AC9643FE8396A4C2A5527327 at DOUG1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Gentlemen and Yls,
>
> I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L
> is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
> interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
> closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
> inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
> part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB
> the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not
> properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
>
>
>
> I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product
> is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us.
>
>
>
> 73 Doug EI2CN
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:30:16 -0400
> From: "kd9sv" <kd9sv at comcast.net>
> To: "'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions'"
> <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
> Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
> using 4square
> Message-ID:
>
<mailman.8.1348156809.16610.hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com at hi
zantennas.com>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna
> from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should
not
> re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
> [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf
Of
> Doug Turnbull
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM
> To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
> 4square
>
> Gentlemen and Yls,
>
> I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L
> is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
> interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
> closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
> inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
> part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB
> the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not
> properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
>
>
>
> I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product
> is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us.
>
>
>
> 73 Doug EI2CN
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
>
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
> izantennas.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400
> From: Roger D Johnson <n1rj at roadrunner.com>
> To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions
> <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
> Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
> using 4square
> Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center
conductor
> at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half
waves on 80m.
> Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer
conductor of the
> feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to
prevent
> this?
>
> 73, Roger
>
>
> 73, Roger
>
> On 9/19/2012 3:30 PM, kd9sv wrote:
> > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna
> > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should
not
> > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
> > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf
Of
> > Doug Turnbull
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM
> > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
> > 4square
> >
> > Gentlemen and Yls,
> >
> > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L
> > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
> > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
> > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
> > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
> > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on
TB
> > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if
not
> > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product
> > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with
us.
> >
> >
> >
> > 73 Doug EI2CN
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> >
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
> > izantennas.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> >
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
izantennas.com
> >
>
> --
> Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5)
> http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/
> http://www.gtr5.com/
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
>
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
izantennas.com
>
>
> End of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4
> ************************************************************
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:43:25 +0100
From: "Doug Turnbull" <turnbull at net1.ie>
To: <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
4 sq
Message-ID: <E64C7C871468444E918C6C52C6D03BF0 at DOUG1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Gentlemen,
I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to
decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they
available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook
close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial
system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so
these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would
be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground
radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information
you may have.
73 Doug EI2CN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
,
I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L
is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB
the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not
properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
73 Doug EI2CN
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna
from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not
re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary
-----Original Message-----
From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of
Doug Turnbull
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM
To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
4square
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400
From: Roger D Johnson <n1rj at roadrunner.com>
To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions
<hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
using 4square
Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center
conductor
at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves
on 80m.
Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor
of the
feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to
prevent
this?
73, Roger
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:02:11 -0400
From: Roger D Johnson <n1rj at roadrunner.com>
To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions
<hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
using 4 sq
Message-ID: <505B7643.4090707 at roadrunner.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Hi Doug....
Sorry I got off track when I thought you said inverted V. Describe your
inverted L.
Vertical height, horizontal length, any matching circuit at base, any traps,
etc.
73, Roger
On 9/20/2012 3:43 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to
> decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they
> available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook
> close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial
> system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so
> these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials
would
> be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground
> radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more
information
> you may have.
>
> 73 Doug EI2CN
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ,
>
> I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted
L
> is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
> interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
> closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
> inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
> part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB
> the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not
> properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
>
>
>
>
> 73 Doug EI2CN
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna
> from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should
not
> re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
> [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf
Of
> Doug Turnbull
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM
> To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
> 4square
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400
> From: Roger D Johnson <n1rj at roadrunner.com>
> To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions
> <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
> Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
> using 4square
> Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center
> conductor
> at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half
waves
> on 80m.
> Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer
conductor
> of the
> feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to
> prevent
> this?
>
> 73, Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
>
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
izantennas.com
>
--
Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5)
http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/
http://www.gtr5.com/
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:56:22 -0400
From: "kd9sv" <kd9sv at comcast.net>
To: "'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions'"
<hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
using 4 sq
Message-ID:
<mailman.238.1348179495.4513.hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com at h
izantennas.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Doug, go to max gain systems (or google vacuum relays) Allan Bond sells the
used RJ-1A or another similar unit with a 12v coil which is easier to
interface. They are very reasonable and with 8ms op/rel times can be used
even with a qsk system. BTW, Alpha uses RJ-1's in their amplifiers.
Probably on the ground radials would be less of a problem than raised
radials for re-radiation...also this could still be a problem with RX on 80
meters as your antenna would be 1/2 wave on 80...de gary
-----Original Message-----
From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of
Doug Turnbull
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:43 PM
To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq
Gentlemen,
I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to
decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they
available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook
close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial
system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so
these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would
be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground
radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information
you may have.
73 Doug EI2CN
----------------------------------------------------------------------
,
I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L
is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an
interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the
closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the
inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is
part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB
the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not
properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier.
73 Doug EI2CN
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna
from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not
re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary
-----Original Message-----
From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com
[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of
Doug Turnbull
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM
To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using
4square
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400
From: Roger D Johnson <n1rj at roadrunner.com>
To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions
<hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when
using 4square
Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center
conductor
at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves
on 80m.
Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor
of the
feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to
prevent
this?
73, Roger
_______________________________________________
Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h
izantennas.com
------------------------------
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