From aa4mm at brighthouse.com Sat Dec 3 15:30:06 2016 From: aa4mm at brighthouse.com (Leo) Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2016 20:30:06 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] My new contact information Message-ID: My new E mail is aa4mm at brighthouse.com my cell phone is 352 638 8650 From k7tjr at msn.com Sun Dec 11 16:17:07 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 21:17:07 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <9422DB3A-122D-4DCD-9AE4-9C44BD7DDF5E@myfairpoint.net> References: <7C80D45B-39ED-4679-BB04-7940DCB4F05B@myfairpoint.net> <9422DB3A-122D-4DCD-9AE4-9C44BD7DDF5E@myfairpoint.net> Message-ID: Hello Craig, Nice to hear from you. The URL for posting to the Hi-Z reflector is a little different than what you used. I suspect that is the sign-up URL. Here is the correct one. Hi-Z Group (Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com) . In regard to the grounding I would say the use of the rusted steel would be totally dependent on the moisture in your soil. In my case I have used the same steel posts for many years. They are seriously deteriorated but I believe that they are still functioning correctly because I have fertile farm ground for the arrays. The other thing that happens with steel is there is a small voltage difference between shack ground and the element grounds due to the voltage drop in the connecting wires. I feel that this difference in potential is causing the galvanic deterioration to accelerate. I suspect in dry ground the rust would not be the best ground situation. That all being said the fact remains that you cannot have too much ground for the elements and so one can add 1 or more copper ground rods or pipes, you can put metal plates in the ground, and you can use a chicken wire type mesh, and you can use radials. Some with radials have eventually removed them as they were not helping the performance of an array. Some have added them and helped the performance of an array. It remains that it is dependent on the soil or lack thereof. The one very important thing beyond the actual resistance value of the ground in use is that all the verticals share the same construction closely. Here are some numbers from a computer simulation of phase and amplitude changes due to ground resistance. From 10 ohms to 50 ohms there is essentially no change in element output level. There is 0.32 degrees of phase change. This is no problem for any of the Hi-Z arrays. From 60 to 100 ohms there is only 0.2 dB voltage change but an additional change of 0.32 degrees phase shift. Going from the 100 ohms down to 10 ohms begins to be an appreciable phase change in element output with the voltage output remaining nearly constant. This is only where there is a difference in ground from one element to another that the array is affected. It is where the ground resistance approaches the next 100 ohms change where the array begin to get into trouble. Going from 100 ohms to 200 ohms ground rod resistance yields a full 0.69 degrees phase change and the output level remains nearly constant within 0.2 dB. And going from 200 to 300 ohms the phase changes another 1.6 degrees which is a disaster with a difference as large as this between elements plus there is appreciable voltage loss of .03 dB. An array with mixed ground resistance of this magnitude would be seriously compromised. So I conclude that if you can get all the elements below 100 ohms or so of Very low frequencyground resistance between all elements you should be be fine with the Hi-Z arrays. This says nothing of the dielectric constant of the ground however the resistance value should dominate and leave you with excellent performance. Measuring the ground resistance is a problem of its own as was recently discussed on the top-band reflector. I would certainly be interested in all comments from users that may have experimented with this. Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas From: Craig Clark [mailto:jcclark at myfairpoint.net] Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 12:27 PM To: k7tjr at msn.com Subject: Fwd: Grounds for 4 square I posted this a Friday but it never showed up on the reflector Thoughts? CraigK1QX Sent from my iPad Begin forwarded message: From: Craig Clark > Date: December 9, 2016 at 09:12:01 EST To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com Subject: Grounds for 4 square I have been using 4' L shaped steel for mounting my elements. I am also using them for the grounds as my array can only be installed after farming is done. As we all know, steel rusts and that may effect performance. I could install copper pipe grounds but the can't be more that 1-2' long. Thoughts? CraigK1QX Sent from my iPad From k1uo at tds.net Sun Dec 11 16:45:50 2016 From: k1uo at tds.net (Larry - K1UO) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 16:45:50 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] RX 4sq ground Message-ID: Hi Craig, I have used the 3ft angle steel pieces that Lowes carries as my antenna support and ground for my HI-Z 4-8 Pro system for the past two years with no noticeable degradation from when I used 2-2ft copper ground rods per 24ft vertical at my old qth. This year, maybe due to rusting I have noticed BCB images creeping in occasionally so I supplemented the steel L angle bases with 2ft copper ground rods and this calmed things down and may have even cleaned the pattern up a bit. Of course the array is over ledge that is about 2 feet down over half the verticals so the ground is very poor but things seem to be working all ok albeit about 1/2 S unit noisier than at the old hill top location 2 miles away. 73 Larry K1UO From kd9sv at comcast.net Sun Dec 11 17:25:01 2016 From: kd9sv at comcast.net (kd9sv) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 17:25:01 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] RX 4sq ground In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82AEDFD5C7F442DF9528436E318E5199@garydell> Larry and others. I use 1 1/2 inch stainless angle iron for my HiZ 4 square supports. They are 3ft long with about 2ft driven into the ground. The angle iron has an enormous amount of surface area compared to a normal ground rod which in my opinion makes a much better ground system for the array. YMMV, 73, de gary -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Larry - K1UO Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2016 4:46 PM To: K1QX Craig; Hi-Z Reflector Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] RX 4sq ground Hi Craig, I have used the 3ft angle steel pieces that Lowes carries as my antenna support and ground for my HI-Z 4-8 Pro system for the past two years with no noticeable degradation from when I used 2-2ft copper ground rods per 24ft vertical at my old qth. This year, maybe due to rusting I have noticed BCB images creeping in occasionally so I supplemented the steel L angle bases with 2ft copper ground rods and this calmed things down and may have even cleaned the pattern up a bit. Of course the array is over ledge that is about 2 feet down over half the verticals so the ground is very poor but things seem to be working all ok albeit about 1/2 S unit noisier than at the old hill top location 2 miles away. 73 Larry K1UO _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From john.kaufmann at verizon.net Mon Dec 12 20:13:44 2016 From: john.kaufmann at verizon.net (John Kaufmann) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 20:13:44 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <006301d254de$26c540e0$744fc2a0$@verizon.net> I have measured RF ground resistance for a short receiving vertical (about 15 ft tall) with just a 4-foot ground rod. I used the AIM-4170, which is a pretty accurate instrument, although I won't claim it's perfect. On 160m the resistance is about 60 ohms. As expected, the measurement also shows a large amount of capacitive reactance, equivalent to a series capacitor of about 50 pF. Actually I measured the resistance across a span of 1 to 10 MHz. The trend is for the resistance to decrease with increasing frequency, although it reaches a floor of 25-30 ohms around 4 MHz and higher. The equivalent series capacitance is pretty constant across frequency. I would have expect the resistance to be higher with just a simple ground rod and it's possible there is some measurement error here. On the other hand the vertical is installed in an area that is surrounded by wetlands, so the soil conductivity is probably above average. 73, John W1FV From Paul at PaulFerguson.us Mon Dec 12 22:12:24 2016 From: Paul at PaulFerguson.us (Paul Ferguson) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 22:12:24 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: John, I also have an AIM 4170C and am interesting in looking at my HI-Z verticals ground resistances. Did you do the measurement by taking the analyzer to each vertical and connecting it to the ground rod wire and vertical wire with the vertical amplifier removed? I also noted Frank, W3LPL, uses a TDR to check his verticals from his shack. I assume you cannot get useful information about the HI-Z verticals from the shack because of the vertical amplifiers, phasing controller, and preamp being part of the system near the arrays. Is this correct? 73, Paul K5ESW On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 8:13 PM, John Kaufmann wrote: > I have measured RF ground resistance for a short receiving vertical (about > 15 ft tall) with just a 4-foot ground rod. I used the AIM-4170, which is a > pretty accurate instrument, although I won't claim it's perfect. On 160m > the resistance is about 60 ohms. As expected, the measurement also shows a > large amount of capacitive reactance, equivalent to a series capacitor of > about 50 pF. > > > > Actually I measured the resistance across a span of 1 to 10 MHz. The trend > is for the resistance to decrease with increasing frequency, although it > reaches a floor of 25-30 ohms around 4 MHz and higher. The equivalent > series capacitance is pretty constant across frequency. > > > > I would have expect the resistance to be higher with just a simple ground > rod and it's possible there is some measurement error here. On the other > hand the vertical is installed in an area that is surrounded by wetlands, > so > the soil conductivity is probably above average. > > > > 73, John W1FV > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi- > zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > From jayt at arraysolutions.com Tue Dec 13 17:28:57 2016 From: jayt at arraysolutions.com (Jay Terleski) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 16:28:57 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: Hi guys, the AIM 4170 or the new AIM 4300 should do a very accurate job of measurement of the verticals. What I would recommend is that you remove the preamplifier from the feedpoint and make a short coax cable with two alligator clip leads for a pigtail of maybe 3 inches each. Then do a custom calibration on this test cable using the SOL method. You can use your load set or just short the clips, open the clips but keep them close together, and any handy resistor. Calibrate from 1 to 7 MHz maybe with 200 test point steps. Save this calibration file so you can use it again in the dry summer to see how things changed. Your measurements should be super accurate now, since cable characteristics will be completely normalized out. Please send me your .SCN file so I can look it over here using our free software. info at arraysolutions.com is the email address. I can make measurements on my HI-Z 22 ft verticals as well for comparisons. Regards Jay, WX0B Jay Terleski Array Solutions 214 954 7140 From john.kaufmann at verizon.net Tue Dec 13 20:27:49 2016 From: john.kaufmann at verizon.net (John Kaufmann) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 20:27:49 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <008801d255a9$485dda70$d9198f50$@verizon.net> Paul (K5ESW) and all, To do my impedance measurements on the verticals, I disconnected the feedpoint amplifier and connected the antenna and ground leads directly to the AIM-4170 input port. At 1.8 MHz, the radiation resistance of a short vertical is essentially zero, so all the resistance that is measured is assumed to be ground resistance. I measured two of the verticals in my 8 circle and got very similar results. At that point I didn't bother measuring the rest of the verticals because I assumed the results would also be similar. W3LPL uses passive (non-amplified) receiving verticals. In his multi-transmitter operations, the extremely strong RF from the transmitters would cause serious blockage or intermods in any active electronics at the array when another receiver is trying to listen through them. That's why he uses the passive approach but it also means his verticals are very narrowband because they have to be resonated (with inductance). I'm not sure what kind of combiner he is using and I don't know exactly how he is doing his TDR measurements. However, I am guessing he is checking for feedline discontinuities or faults that would produce reflections back to the TDR. The TDR would help him pinpoint the location of the faults. With the Hi-Z system, which uses active electronics, I'm not sure what you could learn about the verticals from a TDR in the shack. 73, John W1FV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2016 22:12:24 -0500 From: Paul Ferguson To: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed John, I also have an AIM 4170C and am interesting in looking at my HI-Z verticals ground resistances. Did you do the measurement by taking the analyzer to each vertical and connecting it to the ground rod wire and vertical wire with the vertical amplifier removed? I also noted Frank, W3LPL, uses a TDR to check his verticals from his shack. I assume you cannot get useful information about the HI-Z verticals from the shack because of the vertical amplifiers, phasing controller, and preamp being part of the system near the arrays. Is this correct? 73, Paul K5ESW On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 8:13 PM, John Kaufmann wrote: > I have measured RF ground resistance for a short receiving vertical (about > 15 ft tall) with just a 4-foot ground rod. I used the AIM-4170, which is a > pretty accurate instrument, although I won't claim it's perfect. On 160m > the resistance is about 60 ohms. As expected, the measurement also shows a > large amount of capacitive reactance, equivalent to a series capacitor of > about 50 pF. > > > > Actually I measured the resistance across a span of 1 to 10 MHz. The trend > is for the resistance to decrease with increasing frequency, although it > reaches a floor of 25-30 ohms around 4 MHz and higher. The equivalent > series capacitance is pretty constant across frequency. > > > > I would have expect the resistance to be higher with just a simple ground > rod and it's possible there is some measurement error here. On the other > hand the vertical is installed in an area that is surrounded by wetlands, > so > the soil conductivity is probably above average. > > > > 73, John W1FV > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi- > zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > From contact at hizantennas.com Wed Dec 14 02:34:20 2016 From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact at hizantennas.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2016 23:34:20 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <008801d255a9$485dda70$d9198f50$@verizon.net> References: <008801d255a9$485dda70$d9198f50$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000201d255dc$7c8458a0$758d09e0$@hizantennas.com> Hi-Z Group, With all due respect to the TDR,(I have a Tektronix one) there is another way to test the verticals and amplifiers with the Hi-Z 4, 4-8P, and 8A arrays. You simply remove one end of each of the delay lines. Tune in a strong constant signal like WWV on 2.5 MHz. As you then turn the direction control you will test a single antenna/amp for each direction. In the 8A you actually test two. For the 4 and 4-8P arrays the direction control will point toward the antenna that is active. As you rotate the direction control each antenna/amp should produce exactly the same signal at the RX meter. There can be a couple dB difference due to propagation affects. The station tuned in should be at least 50 miles away. For the 8A array the two antennas active with the delay lines disconnected on one end are the East and West antennas when the direction control points North. As you rotate the direction control to NE the SE and the NW antennas will be active. This continues around the control with the perpendicular antennas active to the direction selected. This test can point out shorted elements, bad cables, and bad amplifiers very easily without disconnecting and testing each element/amp. Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas >> Paul (K5ESW) and all, To do my impedance measurements on the verticals, I disconnected the feedpoint amplifier and connected the antenna and ground leads directly to the AIM-4170 input port. At 1.8 MHz, the radiation resistance of a short vertical is essentially zero, so all the resistance that is measured is assumed to be ground resistance. I measured two of the verticals in my 8 circle and got very similar results. At that point I didn't bother measuring the rest of the verticals because I assumed the results would also be similar. W3LPL uses passive (non-amplified) receiving verticals. In his multi-transmitter operations, the extremely strong RF from the transmitters would cause serious blockage or intermods in any active electronics at the array when another receiver is trying to listen through them. That's why he uses the passive approach but it also means his verticals are very narrowband because they have to be resonated (with inductance). I'm not sure what kind of combiner he is using and I don't know exactly how he is doing his TDR measurements. However, I am guessing he is checking for feedline discontinuities or faults that would produce reflections back to the TDR. The TDR would help him pinpoint the location of the faults. With the Hi-Z system, which uses active electronics, I'm not sure what you could learn about the verticals from a TDR in the shack. 73, John W1FV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From pflorig at windstream.net Wed Dec 14 11:57:59 2016 From: pflorig at windstream.net (pflorig at windstream.net) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:57:59 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <20161214115759.YY1RO.8865.root@pamxwww05-z02> Hi Lee and all, Have done those tests here on the 4-8P and shows a lot as found one amp that was down a little and was distorting the signal. The stronger the sig the more it distorts. Changed to a new amp there and all seems fine now. Have not checked fully bad amp. Questions: -As you suggested to use WWV, I found Canada time at 3.330Mhz also. What will the distance and time of day effect things. RE: ground or sky wave? -My ant are set at 80ft per side and would 2.5Mhz be better? Realize it is just comparison sig strength. Have noticed long fades on sigs so have to wait for max sig time for true comparison. -Assume discussion here is antenna resistance. Is it worth doing a "ground" resistance of each ground rod. If so what would the best method be? -When testing full system, I have been using Smeter with attenuater on max sig at less than S9 for better reading. Is there a better way? Way for actual Db readings? Sorry if this too basic and/or long, but have been thinking/testing on this. Too much of an engineer here. Hi. Thanks for the great discussions here, have learned a lot. Now remember what I learned. Hi. 73 Phil W9IXX On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 2:34 AM, contact at hizantennas.com wrote: > Hi-Z Group, > With all due respect to the TDR,(I have a Tektronix one) there is another > way to test the verticals and amplifiers with the Hi-Z 4, 4-8P, and 8A > arrays. > You simply remove one end of each of the delay lines. Tune in a strong > constant signal like WWV on 2.5 MHz. As you then turn the direction control > you will test a single antenna/amp for each direction. In the 8A you > actually test two. For the 4 and 4-8P arrays the direction control will > point toward the antenna that is active. As you rotate the direction control > each antenna/amp should produce exactly the same signal at the RX meter. > There can be a couple dB difference due to propagation affects. The station > tuned in should be at least 50 miles away. For the 8A array the two antennas > active with the delay lines disconnected on one end are the East and West > antennas when the direction control points North. As you rotate the > direction control to NE the SE and the NW antennas will be active. This > continues around the control with the perpendicular antennas active to the > direction selected. > This test can point out shorted elements, bad cables, and bad amplifiers > very easily without disconnecting and testing each element/amp. > > Lee K7TJR > Hi-Z Antennas > > > >> > Paul (K5ESW) and all, > > To do my impedance measurements on the verticals, I disconnected the > feedpoint amplifier and connected the antenna and ground leads directly to > the AIM-4170 input port. At 1.8 MHz, the radiation resistance of a short > vertical is essentially zero, so all the resistance that is measured is > assumed to be ground resistance. > > I measured two of the verticals in my 8 circle and got very similar results. > At that point I didn't bother measuring the rest of the verticals because I > assumed the results would also be similar. > > W3LPL uses passive (non-amplified) receiving verticals. In his > multi-transmitter operations, the extremely strong RF from the transmitters > would cause serious blockage or intermods in any active electronics at the > array when another receiver is trying to listen through them. That's why > he uses the passive approach but it also means his verticals are very > narrowband because they have to be resonated (with inductance). I'm not > sure what kind of combiner he is using and I don't know exactly how he is > doing his TDR measurements. However, I am guessing he is checking for > feedline discontinuities or faults that would produce reflections back to > the TDR. The TDR would help him pinpoint the location of the faults. > > With the Hi-Z system, which uses active electronics, I'm not sure what you > could learn about the verticals from a TDR in the shack. > > 73, John W1FV > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > From k7tjr at msn.com Wed Dec 14 12:15:25 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:15:25 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <20161214115759.YY1RO.8865.root@pamxwww05-z02> References: <20161214115759.YY1RO.8865.root@pamxwww05-z02> Message-ID: Hello Phil, Please join the group again for some reason with this e-mail address you are not in the address file. I sent this one through by internal means. The very bottom link here will get you on the list. Thanks Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of pflorig at windstream.net Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 8:58 AM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Hi Lee and all, Have done those tests here on the 4-8P and shows a lot as found one amp that was down a little and was distorting the signal. The stronger the sig the more it distorts. Changed to a new amp there and all seems fine now. Have not checked fully bad amp. Questions: -As you suggested to use WWV, I found Canada time at 3.330Mhz also. What will the distance and time of day effect things. RE: ground or sky wave? -My ant are set at 80ft per side and would 2.5Mhz be better? Realize it is just comparison sig strength. Have noticed long fades on sigs so have to wait for max sig time for true comparison. -Assume discussion here is antenna resistance. Is it worth doing a "ground" resistance of each ground rod. If so what would the best method be? -When testing full system, I have been using Smeter with attenuater on max sig at less than S9 for better reading. Is there a better way? Way for actual Db readings? Sorry if this too basic and/or long, but have been thinking/testing on this. Too much of an engineer here. Hi. Thanks for the great discussions here, have learned a lot. Now remember what I learned. Hi. 73 Phil W9IXX _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From contact at hizantennas.com Wed Dec 14 15:42:56 2016 From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact at hizantennas.com) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 12:42:56 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <20161214115759.YY1RO.8865.root@pamxwww05-z02> References: <20161214115759.YY1RO.8865.root@pamxwww05-z02> Message-ID: <000701d2564a$a7401890$f5c049b0$@hizantennas.com> Hello Phil and the group, The reason for using a distant station is so the error between antennas is not affected by the square law loss of signal versus distance to the source. You do not want the distance between elements to be a significant portion of the distance to the source. This becomes very important for sources close to the array. Ground wave would be fine as you are looking for a large enough signal to give you some resolution in the measurement. This is just a quick field test to determine the health just as it did for you and your bad amp. This test easily lets you know when something is drastically wrong. There is a better way to more accurately test the system and that is why we make the little battery powered Signal Source. Without disconnecting the delay lines you can attach our source to each element in turn and induce a S-9 fixed level signal right into the amp and element combination. The signal source is a 1.8432 MHz source at approx.. S-9 with a 56pf capacitive source capacitor. This allows the oscillator to simulate an element or inject to an element a signal simulating a received signal. Because this source does not transmit, it is direct connected to only one element it can be applied with the delay lines left connected to each element in turn testing both the element and the amplifier plus the system. You should test each direction for each amp/element you test. In order to test the system you can simply use the S-meter. If you desire better resolution you can turn the receiver AGC off and use a voltmeter connected to the RX speaker. The voltmeter should read the tone and indicate the changes in level between tests. Most SDR radios also allow you to switch to dBm readings instead of S-Meter readings. I understand the Elecraft K3 can do this also. I have a K3 but have never looked this up and how to accomplish that. The only way I know of right now to test the ground resistance without really expensive equipment is to use one of the little VNA devices to read the R component of the element with ground rod. As John pointed out the element itself R component is very small for a shortened element like this. That allows the VNA or bridge to read the ground resistance. If you have a N2PK VNA and the RFIV impedance bridge it is perfect for this as it measures high impedances much more accurately. The high impedance part of this is the elements source capacitance of around 70 to 100 pf. Nothing is too basic Phil, I should have written this down long ago. I go through it quite often as people contact me with questions. Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas >>> Hi Lee and all, Have done those tests here on the 4-8P and shows a lot as found one amp that was down a little and was distorting the signal. The stronger the sig the more it distorts. Changed to a new amp there and all seems fine now. Have not checked fully bad amp. Questions: -As you suggested to use WWV, I found Canada time at 3.330Mhz also. What will the distance and time of day effect things. RE: ground or sky wave? -My ant are set at 80ft per side and would 2.5Mhz be better? Realize it is just comparison sig strength. Have noticed long fades on sigs so have to wait for max sig time for true comparison. -Assume discussion here is antenna resistance. Is it worth doing a "ground" resistance of each ground rod. If so what would the best method be? -When testing full system, I have been using Smeter with attenuater on max sig at less than S9 for better reading. Is there a better way? Way for actual Db readings? Sorry if this too basic and/or long, but have been thinking/testing on this. Too much of an engineer here. Hi. Thanks for the great discussions here, have learned a lot. Now remember what I learned. Hi. 73 Phil W9IXX From daraymond at iowatelecom.net Wed Dec 14 19:41:08 2016 From: daraymond at iowatelecom.net (daraymond at iowatelecom.net) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 18:41:08 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m Message-ID: Hello Lee and company. . . Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS From daraymond at iowatelecom.net Wed Dec 14 19:58:08 2016 From: daraymond at iowatelecom.net (daraymond at iowatelecom.net) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 18:58:08 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7E165261F096481492654A122E36A329@DavidBrentPC> Following up. . .FWIW. . .I have noticed that the array is noisier than normal. Over a period of a few days I notice It is not hearing moderately low level signals that the TX array is hearing. 73. . . Dave, W0FLS -----Original Message----- From: daraymond at iowatelecom.net Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 6:41 PM To: Hi-Z Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m Hello Lee and company. . . Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13594 - Release Date: 12/14/16 From davek4sv at yahoo.com Wed Dec 14 20:01:40 2016 From: davek4sv at yahoo.com (Dave Anderson) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 20:01:40 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59301521-1A98-444A-B966-B9E952740FF3@yahoo.com> Hi Dave Recently I have noticed interference in my 8 circle that acts as yours does. I traced mine too my Green Heron rotor controller that turns my Waller Flag out in the receive antenna field. It generated a spur every ~6khz. It's intermittent as the PWM sometimes turns on. I now just turn it off. My two cents. Thanks, Dave Anderson, K4SV > On Dec 14, 2016, at 7:41 PM, wrote: > > Hello Lee and company. . . > > Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? > > 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From k7tjr at msn.com Wed Dec 14 20:04:18 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 01:04:18 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Dave, The only time we have ever seen the electronics generate any birdies is when an element has been shorted to ground or installed backwards making the antenna input connected to the ground rod. Check for the 4 to 5 VDC on each element if any are low you may have a bad amp or element leakage problem. I have had grass grow up and touch an element connection causing loss of signal and directivity. Here is something you try. If you have a voltage adjustment on the array vary the voltage a little to see if the birdies move. If no adjustment then watch carefully as you turn the array power off to see if the birdies move in frequency. If indeed they were being generated in the array I would expect them to change a bit with power. All that being said it may be time to pull all the breakers in your house to see if its coming from somewhere else. I just got your second message and your comments about the array are also what will happen if an element is touching some foliage or being shorted out. Directivity and low noise reception suffers. There ya go, my best guess. GOOD LUCK Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas >>> Hello Lee and company. . . Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From daraymond at iowatelecom.net Thu Dec 15 13:03:29 2016 From: daraymond at iowatelecom.net (daraymond at iowatelecom.net) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 12:03:29 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m UPDATE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Further observations show the birdies/artifacts appear to be sidebands coming from a mix of AM broadcast stations. The BC stations spurs appear at the usual places such as 1810, 1820, 1830 KHz, etc. I've always heard birdies on these frequencies from the 8 circle array (but not on the TX antennas). However, the spurs causing me problems I believe are multiple sideband artifacts appearing at and slightly below frequencies .xx5, .x15, .x25, .x35, (e.g., 1.825) etc. Changing the direction of the array has no affect on the signal levels. I hear none of this on my TX 4 square or my quarter wave sloping vertical. The closest BC transmitter is a 5 kw station about 15 miles away. The artifacts are present during both daylight and darkness hours. The array is appears to be noisier than normal and is not hearing weak signals that I can hear on either TX antenna. The 8 circle is hearing somewhat stronger signals and does show directivity. It would seem something has changed in the 8 circle array as I have not ever experienced this problem in the past five years. Ideas? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS -----Original Message----- From: Lee STRAHAN Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:04 PM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m Hello Dave, The only time we have ever seen the electronics generate any birdies is when an element has been shorted to ground or installed backwards making the antenna input connected to the ground rod. Check for the 4 to 5 VDC on each element if any are low you may have a bad amp or element leakage problem. I have had grass grow up and touch an element connection causing loss of signal and directivity. Here is something you try. If you have a voltage adjustment on the array vary the voltage a little to see if the birdies move. If no adjustment then watch carefully as you turn the array power off to see if the birdies move in frequency. If indeed they were being generated in the array I would expect them to change a bit with power. All that being said it may be time to pull all the breakers in your house to see if its coming from somewhere else. I just got your second message and your comments about the array are also what will happen if an element is touching some foliage or being shorted out. Directivity and low noise reception suffers. There ya go, my best guess. GOOD LUCK Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas >>> Hello Lee and company. . . Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13594 - Release Date: 12/14/16 From k7tjr at msn.com Thu Dec 15 13:13:59 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 18:13:59 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m UPDATE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, until you can get out to look the array over there is no way to know any more. We have outlined the checks already, test the element voltages first. Lee -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of daraymond at iowatelecom.net Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2016 10:03 AM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m UPDATE Further observations show the birdies/artifacts appear to be sidebands coming from a mix of AM broadcast stations. The BC stations spurs appear at the usual places such as 1810, 1820, 1830 KHz, etc. I've always heard birdies on these frequencies from the 8 circle array (but not on the TX antennas). However, the spurs causing me problems I believe are multiple sideband artifacts appearing at and slightly below frequencies .xx5, .x15, .x25, .x35, (e.g., 1.825) etc. Changing the direction of the array has no affect on the signal levels. I hear none of this on my TX 4 square or my quarter wave sloping vertical. The closest BC transmitter is a 5 kw station about 15 miles away. The artifacts are present during both daylight and darkness hours. The array is appears to be noisier than normal and is not hearing weak signals that I can hear on either TX antenna. The 8 circle is hearing somewhat stronger signals and does show directivity. It would seem something has changed in the 8 circle array as I have not ever experienced this problem in the past five years. Ideas? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS -----Original Message----- From: Lee STRAHAN Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:04 PM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m Hello Dave, The only time we have ever seen the electronics generate any birdies is when an element has been shorted to ground or installed backwards making the antenna input connected to the ground rod. Check for the 4 to 5 VDC on each element if any are low you may have a bad amp or element leakage problem. I have had grass grow up and touch an element connection causing loss of signal and directivity. Here is something you try. If you have a voltage adjustment on the array vary the voltage a little to see if the birdies move. If no adjustment then watch carefully as you turn the array power off to see if the birdies move in frequency. If indeed they were being generated in the array I would expect them to change a bit with power. All that being said it may be time to pull all the breakers in your house to see if its coming from somewhere else. I just got your second message and your comments about the array are also what will happen if an element is touching some foliage or being shorted out. Directivity and low noise reception suffers. There ya go, my best guess. GOOD LUCK Lee K7TJR Hi-Z Antennas >>> Hello Lee and company. . . Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might be going on? 73. . . Dave, W0FLS _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13594 - Release Date: 12/14/16 _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From davek4sv at yahoo.com Thu Dec 15 22:07:25 2016 From: davek4sv at yahoo.com (Dave Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2016 22:07:25 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m UPDATE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63F5875D-3668-4E93-97E1-99415E5034D4@yahoo.com> Hi Dave I have a BC band filter between the receive antenna switch and radio. One day I was messing around with the radio and must of hit an RG6 cable connecting the filter. The connector was not tight so it unscrewed a 1/4 turn. You would not believe the junk I heard. Could you have moved or changed something just prior to discovering the birdies? We're any changes done to the antennas or shack cabling, computer apps, radio software, radio parameters, or anything in the previous week or so? Replace the radio with a battery powered one like a KX3 our KX2 and see if you hear the same noise, sometimes switching power supplies fail creating spurs. Sometimes switching wall warts go spurious. Try killing the a.c. To the house and use a battery radio. Just some thoughts. Thanks, Dave Anderson, K4SV > On Dec 15, 2016, at 1:03 PM, wrote: > > Further observations show the birdies/artifacts appear to be > sidebands coming from a mix of AM broadcast stations. > The BC stations spurs appear at the usual places such as > 1810, 1820, 1830 KHz, etc. I've always heard birdies on > these frequencies from the 8 circle array (but not on the > TX antennas). However, the spurs causing me problems > I believe are multiple sideband artifacts appearing at and > slightly below frequencies .xx5, .x15, .x25, .x35, (e.g., 1.825) > etc. Changing the direction of the array has no affect on the > signal levels. I hear none of this on my TX 4 square or my > quarter wave sloping vertical. The closest BC transmitter > is a 5 kw station about 15 miles away. The artifacts are present > during both daylight and darkness hours. The array is appears > to be noisier than normal and is not hearing weak signals that I > can hear on either TX antenna. The 8 circle is hearing > somewhat stronger signals and does show directivity. It would > seem something has changed in the 8 circle array as I have not > ever experienced this problem in the past five years. Ideas? > > 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > > -----Original Message----- From: Lee STRAHAN > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:04 PM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m > > Hello Dave, > The only time we have ever seen the electronics generate any birdies is > when an element has been shorted to ground or installed backwards making the > antenna input connected to the ground rod. Check for the 4 to 5 VDC on each > element if any are low you may have a bad amp or element leakage problem. > I have had grass grow up and touch an element connection causing loss of > signal and directivity. > Here is something you try. If you have a voltage adjustment on the array > vary the voltage a little to see if the birdies move. If no adjustment then > watch carefully as you turn the array power off to see if the birdies move > in frequency. If indeed they were being generated in the array I would > expect them to change a bit with power. > All that being said it may be time to pull all the breakers in your house > to see if its coming from somewhere else. > > I just got your second message and your comments about the array are also > what will happen if an element is touching some foliage or being shorted > out. Directivity and low noise reception suffers. > There ya go, my best guess. > GOOD LUCK > > Lee K7TJR > Hi-Z Antennas > > > > > >>>> > Hello Lee and company. . . > > Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my > Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, > etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. > They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some > more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are > warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are > lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of > the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good > directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of > the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. > The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will > go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, > connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground > rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from > the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might > be going on? > > 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13594 - Release Date: 12/14/16 > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From pflorig at windstream.net Fri Dec 16 16:07:07 2016 From: pflorig at windstream.net (pflorig at windstream.net) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:07:07 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m UPDATE Message-ID: <20161216160707.6WO2U.1619.root@pamxwww08-z02> Hi, I have been having some troubles with intermittent power line arc noise on some 7200v overhead lines here. Only had a few times when the noise is there and receiving on the 4-8sq at the same time so don't have good info except that I do see it as directional on the HiZ system. Been working with power co on it and have this current problem with a feeder drop about 400ft away. Only noticed the noise floor rise at the pulse level time and seemed to degrade some distance signals. Tnx for the discussion here as will pay more attention to this in the future. 73 Phil W9iXX On Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:03 PM, daraymond at iowatelecom.net wrote: > Further observations show the birdies/artifacts appear to be > sidebands coming from a mix of AM broadcast stations. > The BC stations spurs appear at the usual places such as > 1810, 1820, 1830 KHz, etc. I've always heard birdies on > these frequencies from the 8 circle array (but not on the > TX antennas). However, the spurs causing me problems > I believe are multiple sideband artifacts appearing at and > slightly below frequencies .xx5, .x15, .x25, .x35, (e.g., 1.825) > etc. Changing the direction of the array has no affect on the > signal levels. I hear none of this on my TX 4 square or my > quarter wave sloping vertical. The closest BC transmitter > is a 5 kw station about 15 miles away. The artifacts are present > during both daylight and darkness hours. The array is appears > to be noisier than normal and is not hearing weak signals that I > can hear on either TX antenna. The 8 circle is hearing > somewhat stronger signals and does show directivity. It would > seem something has changed in the 8 circle array as I have not > ever experienced this problem in the past five years. Ideas? > > 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lee STRAHAN > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 7:04 PM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 160m > > Hello Dave, > The only time we have ever seen the electronics generate any birdies is > when an element has been shorted to ground or installed backwards making the > antenna input connected to the ground rod. Check for the 4 to 5 VDC on each > element if any are low you may have a bad amp or element leakage problem. > I have had grass grow up and touch an element connection causing loss of > signal and directivity. > Here is something you try. If you have a voltage adjustment on the array > vary the voltage a little to see if the birdies move. If no adjustment then > watch carefully as you turn the array power off to see if the birdies move > in frequency. If indeed they were being generated in the array I would > expect them to change a bit with power. > All that being said it may be time to pull all the breakers in your house > to see if its coming from somewhere else. > > I just got your second message and your comments about the array are also > what will happen if an element is touching some foliage or being shorted > out. Directivity and low noise reception suffers. > There ya go, my best guess. > GOOD LUCK > > Lee K7TJR > Hi-Z Antennas > > > > > > >>> > Hello Lee and company. . . > > Over the past couple of weeks or so I?ve noticed some spurious signals in my > Hi-Z 8 circle 160m array. I?ve always had BC spurs on 1820, 1830, 1840, > etc. but these are low level signals, just a few db above the noise floor. > They seem to be random in frequency spacing. Some are 1 KHz apart, some > more, some less. They are not clear, stable signals. . .rather, they are > warbly and ?fuzzy? (something like AU) and seem a little broad. There are > lots of them as I tune up down 20 or 30 KHz in the 1810 ? 1835 KHz part of > the band. The array seems to have normal performance, reasonably good > directivity, F/B, etc. The signal levels do not change with direction of > the array which leads me to believe it is something internal to the array. > The weather here is very cold right now. When it decides to warm up I will > go out and re-seat all the various connections including the F connectors, > connections from the preamps to the elements, element connections to ground > rod, etc. I do have the 75 to 50 ohm box in line as I feed the array from > the shack with RG58. I do not have a preamp in line. Any ideas what might > be going on? > > 73. . . Dave, W0FLS > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2016.0.7924 / Virus Database: 4739/13594 - Release Date: 12/14/16 > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > From pflorig at windstream.net Fri Dec 16 16:34:32 2016 From: pflorig at windstream.net (pflorig at windstream.net) Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:34:32 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <20161216163432.WPP23.1748.root@pamxwww08-z02> Hi Lee and group, Thanks for the good information here and is appreciated. -Testing with the delays off is nice check. Also have the sig source here and really has helped also. -Glad mentioned about AGC and didn't have it off. Finally had to go on setting and now can turn off in one of the positions. Will try the voltmtr and see what happens. Also have a DB mtr and will try it also. Tnx -What I did for checking resistance if to measure with a 259B and find the resonant point and look at the terminal resistance. In my case the antennas resonate around 55Mhz and res is around 50ohms. Nice thing about this is can check the 8 antennas and see if they are all close to the same reading. (I have one here that is 87 ohms?) -Above measured right at the ant w/o the amp connected. Also tried running an additional short jumper from the ground to the angle iron holding the antenna system up and sure made a difference as to resonance and other things. This would be like adding two different grounds together. Not sure why such a big change except if the two grounds are so bad on the lower side of the vert dipole. Think this was mentioned before from some as to different grounds. I am still checking on this except getting cold here. (for NC. Hi.) 73 Phil W9iXX On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:42 PM, contact at hizantennas.com wrote: > Hello Phil and the group, > The reason for using a distant station is so the error between antennas is > not affected by the square law loss of signal versus distance to the source. > You do not want the distance between elements to be a significant portion of > the distance to the source. This becomes very important for sources close to > the array. Ground wave would be fine as you are looking for a large enough > signal to give you some resolution in the measurement. This is just a quick > field test to determine the health just as it did for you and your bad amp. > This test easily lets you know when something is drastically wrong. > There is a better way to more accurately test the system and that is why > we make the little battery powered Signal Source. Without disconnecting the > delay lines you can attach our source to each element in turn and induce a > S-9 fixed level signal right into the amp and element combination. The > signal source is a 1.8432 MHz source at approx.. S-9 with a 56pf capacitive > source capacitor. This allows the oscillator to simulate an element or > inject to an element a signal simulating a received signal. Because this > source does not transmit, it is direct connected to only one element it can > be applied with the delay lines left connected to each element in turn > testing both the element and the amplifier plus the system. You should test > each direction for each amp/element you test. > In order to test the system you can simply use the S-meter. If you desire > better resolution you can turn the receiver AGC off and use a voltmeter > connected to the RX speaker. The voltmeter should read the tone and indicate > the changes in level between tests. Most SDR radios also allow you to switch > to dBm readings instead of S-Meter readings. I understand the Elecraft K3 > can do this also. I have a K3 but have never looked this up and how to > accomplish that. > The only way I know of right now to test the ground resistance without > really expensive equipment is to use one of the little VNA devices to read > the R component of the element with ground rod. As John pointed out the > element itself R component is very small for a shortened element like this. > That allows the VNA or bridge to read the ground resistance. If you have a > N2PK VNA and the RFIV impedance bridge it is perfect for this as it measures > high impedances much more accurately. The high impedance part of this is the > elements source capacitance of around 70 to 100 pf. > Nothing is too basic Phil, I should have written this down long ago. I go > through it quite often as people contact me with questions. > > Lee K7TJR > Hi-Z Antennas > > > > >>> > Hi Lee and all, > Have done those tests here on the 4-8P and shows a lot as found one amp that > was down a little and was distorting the signal. The stronger the sig the > more it distorts. > Changed to a new amp there and all seems fine now. Have not checked fully > bad amp. > Questions: > -As you suggested to use WWV, I found Canada time at 3.330Mhz also. What > will the distance and time of day effect things. RE: ground or sky wave? > -My ant are set at 80ft per side and would 2.5Mhz be better? Realize it is > just comparison sig strength. Have noticed long fades on sigs so have to > wait for max sig time for true comparison. > -Assume discussion here is antenna resistance. Is it worth doing a "ground" > resistance of each ground rod. If so what would the best method be? > -When testing full system, I have been using Smeter with attenuater on max > sig at less than S9 for better reading. Is there a better way? Way for > actual Db readings? > > Sorry if this too basic and/or long, but have been thinking/testing on this. > Too much of an engineer here. Hi. > Thanks for the great discussions here, have learned a lot. Now remember what > I learned. Hi. > 73 Phil W9IXX > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > From k7tjr at msn.com Fri Dec 16 21:50:30 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 02:50:30 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <20161216163432.WPP23.1748.root@pamxwww08-z02> References: <20161216163432.WPP23.1748.root@pamxwww08-z02> Message-ID: Hello Phil, After checking a couple things I would think you should find the first element resonance (+- J ohms goes to 0) at about 10.5MHz for a 23 foot vertical. I suspect it may be easier to tune at higher frequencies but you might get better answers for the grounding if you used the first resonance near 10.5 Mhz. Maybe some bad soil is near the one antenna ground you have at 87 ohms. It sure would not hurt to lower that one with an added short ground rod to get it closer to all the others. Maybe next year when Ol man winter leaves hi hi. Lee K7TJR Hi Lee and group, Thanks for the good information here and is appreciated. -Testing with the delays off is nice check. Also have the sig source here and really has helped also. -Glad mentioned about AGC and didn't have it off. Finally had to go on setting and now can turn off in one of the positions. Will try the voltmtr and see what happens. Also have a DB mtr and will try it also. Tnx -What I did for checking resistance if to measure with a 259B and find the resonant point and look at the terminal resistance. In my case the antennas resonate around 55Mhz and res is around 50ohms. Nice thing about this is can check the 8 antennas and see if they are all close to the same reading. (I have one here that is 87 ohms?) -Above measured right at the ant w/o the amp connected. Also tried running an additional short jumper from the ground to the angle iron holding the antenna system up and sure made a difference as to resonance and other things. This would be like adding two different grounds together. Not sure why such a big change except if the two grounds are so bad on the lower side of the vert dipole. Think this was mentioned before from some as to different grounds. I am still checking on this except getting cold here. (for NC. Hi.) 73 Phil W9iXX On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:42 PM, contact at hizantennas.com wrote: From w5xz at att.net Fri Dec 16 22:09:24 2016 From: w5xz at att.net (dan edwards) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 03:09:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: References: <20161216163432.WPP23.1748.root@pamxwww08-z02> Message-ID: <1526492726.650356.1481944164965@mail.yahoo.com> while element to element comparisons might be useful, isn't ground?conductivity vastly different at 1.8 Mhz than at 10 Mhz ?? or, am I delusional, again? ?ha ha ha 73, w5xz From: Lee STRAHAN To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Sent: Friday, December 16, 2016 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Hello Phil, ? After checking a couple things I would think you should find the first element? resonance (+- J ohms goes to 0)? at about 10.5MHz for a 23 foot vertical. I suspect it may be easier to tune at higher frequencies but you might get better answers for the grounding if you used the first resonance near 10.5 Mhz. Maybe some bad soil is near the one antenna ground? you have at 87 ohms. It sure would not hurt to lower that one with an added short ground rod to get it closer to all the others. Maybe next year when Ol man winter leaves hi hi. Lee K7TJR Hi Lee and group, Thanks for the good information here and is appreciated. -Testing with the delays off is nice check. Also have the sig source here and really has helped also. -Glad mentioned about AGC and didn't have it off. Finally had to go on setting and now can turn off in one of the positions. Will try the voltmtr and see what happens. Also have a DB mtr and will try it also.? Tnx -What I did for checking resistance if to measure with a 259B and find the resonant point and look at the terminal resistance.? In my case the antennas resonate around 55Mhz and res is around 50ohms. Nice thing about this is can check the 8 antennas and see if they are all close to the same reading. (I have one here that is 87 ohms?) -Above measured right at the ant w/o the amp connected. Also tried running an additional short jumper from the ground to the angle iron holding the antenna system up and sure made a difference as to resonance and other things. This would be like adding two different grounds together. Not sure why such a big change except if the two grounds are so bad on the lower side of the vert dipole. Think this was mentioned before from some as to different grounds. I am still checking on this except getting cold here. (for NC. Hi.) 73? Phil? W9iXX On Wednesday, December 14, 2016 3:42 PM, contact at hizantennas.com wrote: _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From k7tjr at msn.com Sat Dec 17 13:17:34 2016 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee STRAHAN) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:17:34 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square In-Reply-To: <1526492726.650356.1481944164965@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20161216163432.WPP23.1748.root@pamxwww08-z02> <1526492726.650356.1481944164965@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gm Dan, Well you are correct the conductivity changes. We are at the mercy of trying to find a way to have a go or no go test for the Hi-Z type elements. Most owners only have access to something like an MFJ259 to measure the elements. Those simple impedance bridges do not do well with high impedances like the shortened verticals off resonance. However the resistive component may give a better portion of the conductivity? For those looking for more data on conductivity here is an N6LF page on that. "http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/ground_skin_depth_and_wavelength.pdf" The conductivity is actually about 2 to 1 difference from 2 to 10 MHz with the higher conductivity at the 10 MHz end So until we find a better way to measure we may have to improvise. The N2PK VNA has a RFIV bridge that does very well with the higher impedances, It would be very interesting to compare the results from two methods. Any other suggestions out there? I can't make any test here right now with 15 inches of snow on the flat. Lee K7TJR >> while element to element comparisons might be useful, isn't ground?conductivity vastly different at 1.8 Mhz than at 10 Mhz ?? or, am I delusional, again? ?ha ha ha 73, w5xz From pflorig at windstream.net Sat Dec 17 17:54:32 2016 From: pflorig at windstream.net (pflorig at windstream.net) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 17:54:32 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <20161217175432.0A5VK.3520.root@pamxwww08-z02> Thanks Lee, I assume (Hate that) that your antennas are below the snow level and you have local heaters on each to keep the area clear around each ant! Hi! Enjoy the snow, have cold and rainy here as cold fronts are starting to come thru. 73 Phil On Saturday, December 17, 2016 1:17 PM, Lee STRAHAN wrote: > Gm Dan, > Well you are correct the conductivity changes. We are at the mercy of trying to > find a way to have a go or no go test for the Hi-Z type elements. Most owners > only have access to something like an MFJ259 to measure the elements. Those > simple impedance bridges do not do well with high impedances like the shortened > verticals off resonance. However the resistive component may give a better > portion of the conductivity? > For those looking for more data on conductivity here is an N6LF page on that. > "http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/ground_skin_depth_and_wavelength.pdf" > The conductivity is actually about 2 to 1 difference from 2 to 10 MHz with the > higher conductivity at the 10 MHz end > So until we find a better way to measure we may have to improvise. > The N2PK VNA has a RFIV bridge that does very well with the higher impedances, > It would be very interesting to compare the results from two methods. > Any other suggestions out there? > I can't make any test here right now with 15 inches of snow on the flat. > > Lee K7TJR > > >> > while element to element comparisons might be useful, isn't ground conductivity > vastly different at 1.8 Mhz than at 10 Mhz ?? > or, am I delusional, again? ha ha ha > 73, w5xz > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > From pflorig at windstream.net Sat Dec 17 18:04:12 2016 From: pflorig at windstream.net (pflorig at windstream.net) Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2016 18:04:12 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Grounds for 4 square Message-ID: <20161217180412.XRXDU.3543.root@pamxwww08-z02> Hi agn, Just for reference I also used the 259 to try and check at 80 and 160. 80mtrs 3.5mhz 45-60 ohms x=414 swr>25 160mtrs 1.8mhz >650ohms x>650 swr>25 Took these readings before the other measurements I posted. Tomorrow I will try some other measurements and see what shows up on 10mhz. Little cold, rainy and dark now. Coyotes come out now so little careful. 73 Phil On Saturday, December 17, 2016 1:17 PM, Lee STRAHAN wrote: > Gm Dan, > Well you are correct the conductivity changes. We are at the mercy of trying to > find a way to have a go or no go test for the Hi-Z type elements. Most owners > only have access to something like an MFJ259 to measure the elements. Those > simple impedance bridges do not do well with high impedances like the shortened > verticals off resonance. However the resistive component may give a better > portion of the conductivity? > For those looking for more data on conductivity here is an N6LF page on that. > "http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/files/ground_skin_depth_and_wavelength.pdf" > The conductivity is actually about 2 to 1 difference from 2 to 10 MHz with the > higher conductivity at the 10 MHz end > So until we find a better way to measure we may have to improvise. > The N2PK VNA has a RFIV bridge that does very well with the higher impedances, > It would be very interesting to compare the results from two methods. > Any other suggestions out there? > I can't make any test here right now with 15 inches of snow on the flat. > > Lee K7TJR > > >> > while element to element comparisons might be useful, isn't ground conductivity > vastly different at 1.8 Mhz than at 10 Mhz ?? > or, am I delusional, again? ha ha ha > 73, w5xz > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizan > tennas.com > From k1uo at tds.net Fri Dec 23 09:25:49 2016 From: k1uo at tds.net (Larry - K1UO) Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2016 09:25:49 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HI-Z BCB Filter Message-ID: Anyone got a spare HI-Z BCB Filter they are not using and would like to part with? Contact me off list via arrl.net Thanks , MX and HNY all, Larry K1UO