From cqkg8co at yahoo.com Wed Nov 27 19:20:42 2013 From: cqkg8co at yahoo.com (Brian Sarkisian, KG8CO) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:20:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 Element Pro ASC System Message-ID: <1385598042.54098.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I recently purchased a Hi-Z 8 element ASC (2 receiver set up) with the wireless remote switch. Have figured out how to hook up a 1 receiver system, but with the addition of the receiver sharing units I am lost and could use some assistance with the initial wiring. Thank you Brian, KG8CO From contact at hizantennas.com Thu Nov 28 10:12:13 2013 From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 07:12:13 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 Element Pro ASC System In-Reply-To: <1385598042.54098.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1385598042.54098.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01ceec4c$3c5adb20$b5109160$@com> Hi Brian, Please call me and we can discuss. This T-Day is crazy for me as we have a family member with medical issues. In essence the W/L has 8 control lines, one system will use some of the lines and the other system will use the rest of the lines, as I remember talking with teck at DXE, you will have a few left over control lines. Call me at 541.543.9921 just about anytime and we'll get you squared away. 73 Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Brian Sarkisian, KG8CO Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:21 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-Z 8 Element Pro ASC System I recently purchased a Hi-Z 8 element ASC (2 receiver set up) with the wireless remote switch. Have figured out how to hook up a 1 receiver system, but with the addition of the receiver sharing units I am lost and could use some assistance with the initial wiring. Thank you Brian, KG8CO _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From k7tjr at msn.com Thu Nov 28 13:25:46 2013 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 10:25:46 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving Message-ID: Just wanted to take a moment to give thanks to all the followers, users, friends, and others from the Hi-Z worker bees. Thanks to all from Lee K7TJR, Dick KO7N, Travis, and Jeff. When we get caught up a bit look for us to be a bit more active here and with some new things. Again Happy Thanksgiving to all Lee From nk7u at nk7u.com Thu Nov 28 15:24:09 2013 From: nk7u at nk7u.com (Joe Rudi) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 12:24:09 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Lee, Hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Sure love that 8el array, especially on 160m. First time I've actually been able to hear stations on the receive array that I can't hear on the 4 square, makes it a whole different band for me. I do have a couple of questions for you, I'll try to call next week. Have a great Holiday and weekend 73 Joe On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > Just wanted to take a moment to give thanks to all the followers, users, > friends, and others from the Hi-Z worker bees. > > Thanks to all from Lee K7TJR, Dick KO7N, Travis, and Jeff. > > When we get caught up a bit look for us to be a bit more active here and > with some new things. > > Again Happy Thanksgiving to all > > Lee > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > From k7tjr at msn.com Thu Nov 28 23:55:24 2013 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 20:55:24 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank You Joe, call anytime 503-307-1498 Lee -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Joe Rudi Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 12:24 PM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving Hi Lee, Hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving. Sure love that 8el array, especially on 160m. First time I've actually been able to hear stations on the receive array that I can't hear on the 4 square, makes it a whole different band for me. I do have a couple of questions for you, I'll try to call next week. Have a great Holiday and weekend 73 Joe On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > Just wanted to take a moment to give thanks to all the followers, > users, friends, and others from the Hi-Z worker bees. > > Thanks to all from Lee K7TJR, Dick KO7N, Travis, and Jeff. > > When we get caught up a bit look for us to be a bit more active > here and with some new things. > > Again Happy Thanksgiving to all > > Lee > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscuss > ions_hizantennas.com > _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From K4PI at BELLSOUTH.NET Fri Nov 29 15:00:49 2013 From: K4PI at BELLSOUTH.NET (Mike Greenway) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 15:00:49 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving Wishes Message-ID: <7BCF975890204E2B82433059FC2F77FD@SHACK> Happy Thanksgiving from here in the SE. Hope to see more activity on the reflector by others so I can field some questions of others results with the 8 circle 73 Mike K4PI From w0uce at nc.rr.com Fri Nov 29 16:21:15 2013 From: w0uce at nc.rr.com (W0UCE) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:21:15 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Happy Turkey Day Message-ID: <035001ceed48$f2040120$d60c0360$@nc.rr.com> Happy Thanksgiving to the Hi-Z gang. Thank you for a great product (My Hi-Z 3 Triangular Array) it beats any other RX Antenna or Antenna System I have ever had. The pre and post sales support is awesome as well. 73, Jack W?UCE From k7tjr at msn.com Fri Nov 29 16:25:30 2013 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:25:30 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving Wishes In-Reply-To: <7BCF975890204E2B82433059FC2F77FD@SHACK> References: <7BCF975890204E2B82433059FC2F77FD@SHACK> Message-ID: You are free to field all the questions you want. Making some activity will precipitate more. Someone will jump in. Lee K7TJR -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Mike Greenway Sent: Friday, November 29, 2013 12:01 PM To: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Thanksgiving Wishes Happy Thanksgiving from here in the SE. Hope to see more activity on the reflector by others so I can field some questions of others results with the 8 circle 73 Mike K4PI _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From k4pi at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 30 17:13:29 2013 From: k4pi at bellsouth.net (k4pi at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:13:29 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE Message-ID: I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter. I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly only good on 160. Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most part the F/B is not great. Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band and other bands. On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S. Just wondering if this is what others are seeing. It receives fine. I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods. Also wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by ON4UN?s Low Band DXing book. I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC data. My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline. It is grounded once in the middle. Would like to hear from others on their experience. 73 Mike K4PI From k7tjr at msn.com Sat Nov 30 17:56:07 2013 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 14:56:07 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to work on a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro which is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. With of course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than the single band array. All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears reasonably well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front to back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. What say others? Lee K7TJR -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of k4pi at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter. I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly only good on 160. Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most part the F/B is not great. Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band and other bands. On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S. Just wondering if this is what others are seeing. It receives fine. I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods. Also wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by ON4UN?s Low Band DXing book. I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC data. My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline. It is grounded once in the middle. Would like to hear from others on their experience. 73 Mike K4PI _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From wi5a at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 30 17:58:53 2013 From: wi5a at sbcglobal.net (Larry Burke) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:58:53 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: References:

Message-ID: <028501ceee1f$bf452660$3dcf7320$@sbcglobal.net> My experience is pretty much like Mike's with regards to other bands. I am using an 8-circle with 200 ft diameter on 160m. Larry K5RK -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Lee K7TJR Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 4:56 PM To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to work on a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro which is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. With of course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than the single band array. All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears reasonably well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front to back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. What say others? Lee K7TJR -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of k4pi at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter. I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly only good on 160. Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most part the F/B is not great. Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band and other bands. On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S. Just wondering if this is what others are seeing. It receives fine. I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods. Also wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by ON4UN?s Low Band DXing book. I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC data. My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline. It is grounded once in the middle. Would like to hear from others on their experience. 73 Mike K4PI _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From kd9sv at comcast.net Sat Nov 30 18:53:50 2013 From: kd9sv at comcast.net (kd9sv) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:53:50 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Lee, 30db F/B is about what I am seeing on my 4sq with 80ft/side which is located about 400ft in the clear in an open field...de gary -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Lee K7TJR Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:56 PM To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to work on a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro which is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. With of course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than the single band array. All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears reasonably well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front to back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. What say others? Lee K7TJR -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of k4pi at bellsouth.net Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter. I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly only good on 160. Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most part the F/B is not great. Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band and other bands. On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S. Just wondering if this is what others are seeing. It receives fine. I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods. Also wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by ON4UN's Low Band DXing book. I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC data. My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline. It is grounded once in the middle. Would like to hear from others on their experience. 73 Mike K4PI _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From davek4sv at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:18:01 2013 From: davek4sv at yahoo.com (Dave Anderson, K4SV) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:18:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1385857081.14572.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, I have had my 200' 8 circle for nearly 2 years now. ?In my case I have installed my 4 square inside of the 8 circle. ?This allows me to have both controllers in the same cabinet.? For 160 meters, The 4 square works very well with great F/B. ?My 8 circle works well but depending on the arrival angle of the signals the F/B varies. ?I do not think the 8 circle has ever has 30+ DB of F/B. ?I am using a ~3 foot 5/8" ground rod (8 foot rod cut into three pieces) for each antenna. ?My array is out all by itself away from any metal objects on a small hill. Lee's comment about it should have a 30+ DB F/B is interesting. ?If grounding is the key I will go out tomorrow and add more ground rods/radials and give it a try to see if it will indeed improve F/B. ?Comments? My 8 circle works not bad on 80 meters either, directional too. When I test my 8 circle/4 square and other receive antennas for F/B I try to do this during the middle of the day using ground wave from an AM broadcast station 100 miles away or so. ?This was suggested by Jose N4IS when testing the Waller Flag I built. ?When using an application called Polar plot and testing the WF I can easily see the pattern of the WF. ?This might be a trick that can be used to check F/B on other receive antennas.? I have attached a plot of the 8 circle when using Polar Plot. ?Once I started Polar Plot I switched the 8 circle through its range. ?You can read the F/B from an AM station some 80 miles away. Comments? ? Dave Anderson, K4SV Tryon, NC ?828 777-5088 ? www.K4SV.net ? On Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:54 PM, kd9sv wrote: Lee, 30db F/B is about what I am seeing on my 4sq with 80ft/side which is >located about 400ft in the clear in an open field...de gary > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of >Lee K7TJR >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:56 PM >To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' >Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to work on >a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. >I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If >operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro which >is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. With of >course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than the single band >array. >? All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears reasonably >well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. >I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however >every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front to >back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. > >What say others? > >Lee? K7TJR > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of >k4pi at bellsouth.net >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM >To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter.? I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly >only good on 160.? Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most >part the F/B is not great.? Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 >squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band >and other bands.? On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant >direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S.? Just wondering if >this is what others are seeing.? It receives fine.? > >I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. >I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had >seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods.? Also wondered if >anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by >ON4UN's Low Band DXing book.? I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC >data.? My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline.? It is >grounded once in the middle. > >Would like to hear from others on their experience.? > >73 Mike K4PI >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > >izantennas.com > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h >izantennas.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > From davek4sv at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 19:18:11 2013 From: davek4sv at yahoo.com (Dave Anderson, K4SV) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:18:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1385857091.30655.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Everyone, I have had my 200' 8 circle for nearly 2 years now. ?In my case I have installed my 4 square inside of the 8 circle. ?This allows me to have both controllers in the same cabinet.? For 160 meters, The 4 square works very well with great F/B. ?My 8 circle works well but depending on the arrival angle of the signals the F/B varies. ?I do not think the 8 circle has ever has 30+ DB of F/B. ?I am using a ~3 foot 5/8" ground rod (8 foot rod cut into three pieces) for each antenna. ?My array is out all by itself away from any metal objects on a small hill. Lee's comment about it should have a 30+ DB F/B is interesting. ?If grounding is the key I will go out tomorrow and add more ground rods/radials and give it a try to see if it will indeed improve F/B. ?Comments? My 8 circle works not bad on 80 meters either, directional too. When I test my 8 circle/4 square and other receive antennas for F/B I try to do this during the middle of the day using ground wave from an AM broadcast station 100 miles away or so. ?This was suggested by Jose N4IS when testing the Waller Flag I built. ?When using an application called Polar plot and testing the WF I can easily see the pattern of the WF. ?This might be a trick that can be used to check F/B on other receive antennas.? I have attached a plot of the 8 circle when using Polar Plot. ?Once I started Polar Plot I switched the 8 circle through its range. ?You can read the F/B from an AM station some 80 miles away. Comments? ? Dave Anderson, K4SV Tryon, NC ?828 777-5088 ? www.K4SV.net ? On Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:54 PM, kd9sv wrote: Lee, 30db F/B is about what I am seeing on my 4sq with 80ft/side which is >located about 400ft in the clear in an open field...de gary > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of >Lee K7TJR >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:56 PM >To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' >Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to work on >a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. >I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If >operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro which >is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. With of >course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than the single band >array. >? All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears reasonably >well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. >I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however >every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front to >back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. > >What say others? > >Lee? K7TJR > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of >k4pi at bellsouth.net >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM >To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter.? I notice the F/B and F/S are mainly >only good on 160.? Even on the upper portion of the BC band for the most >part the F/B is not great.? Not that I need this but I have used Hi Z 4 >squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B on the BC band >and other bands.? On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the most predominant >direction of a station but there is little F/B and F/S.? Just wondering if >this is what others are seeing.? It receives fine.? > >I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. >I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else had >seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods.? Also wondered if >anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line as recommended by >ON4UN's Low Band DXing book.? I have one at the receiver end built from K9YC >data.? My feedline is about 450 ft long being cable TV hardline.? It is >grounded once in the middle. > >Would like to hear from others on their experience.? > >73 Mike K4PI >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > >izantennas.com > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h >izantennas.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > From jkaufmann at alum.mit.edu Sat Nov 30 20:29:20 2013 From: jkaufmann at alum.mit.edu (John Kaufmann) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 20:29:20 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE Message-ID: <01e301ceee34$c2cb5a60$48620f20$@alum.mit.edu> I came up with a compromise solution that allows a single Hi-Z 8-circle to work well on both 160m and 80m. There are two parts to the solution: 1. Use a 140-foot diameter circle instead of 200 feet for 160m or 100 feet for 80m. 140 feet seems to be the "sweet" spot for dual-band operation. If you go much smaller, 160m performance suffers. If you go much larger, the 80m forward lobe gets really narrow and the sidelobes get big. At 140 feet, the RDF is 12.6 dB on 160m (down less than 1 dB from the 200-foot version) and is 13.7 dB on 80m. 2. Use separate switchable delay lines for 160m and 80m. These are the same delay lines you would use for single-band operation. I do the switching with relays external to the controller box. On 160m I get excellent F/B and F/S, 20 dB or more. The pattern is very clean with low sidelobes. On 80m the pattern gets really sharp because the forward lobe is only about 45 degrees wide, although the sidelobes are also starting to creep up. The F/B on 80 is often 30 dB. The array hears really well on both bands. 73, John W1FV From k7tjr at msn.com Sat Nov 30 20:34:47 2013 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:34:47 -0800 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: <1385857091.30655.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1385857091.30655.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I just ran some theoretical plots of the array at 1.84 MHZ. The 200 foot dia 8 element array shows 44 dB of F/B. Of course it is unlikely we would ever see that much. However I routinely see 30+ dB in practice. I scaled all phases on an 8 element 200 foot dia array to 1MHz in the BCB and sure enough as I remembered there is little if any low angle pattern. It is almost circular with less than 10dB of F/B. This 8 element array was designed to only work from 1.8 to 2 MHz. Or 3.5 to 4 MHZ when scaled to 100 foot dia and new delay cables. Interestingly enough I have tried the Broadcast F/B determination many times. What I have discovered is that not all BCB stations seem to have that ground wave low angle and do not always show F/B on the arrays. No, I have not tried to figure out why. Maybe it's a mix of high angle skywave and ground wave. What I do know for a fact is that early morning signals sometimes come in at high angles and show little directivity for a period during sunrise. A classic example of that was FT5XO that came in solid on arrays and beverages until late in the sunrise and then switched to no directivity and best reception on my TX vertical. We have had some recent reports from Alaska where there is no soil only rock dust from glaciers. The reports showed that at low frequencies like 160 a Hi-Z array needed some extra ground help. Adding some short radials has helped the situation but I remember back to my original research where I found radials to be pretty sensitive to placement. I also at times have suggested shallow burying of a plate of metal to increase the surface area of the element ground to the earth. My early research indicated this to be a bit more stable than hoping to place radials accurately. Accuracy is why these arrays are able to do what they do. Lee K7TJR -----Original Message----- From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Dave Anderson, K4SV Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 4:18 PM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE Hi Everyone, I have had my 200' 8 circle for nearly 2 years now. ?In my case I have installed my 4 square inside of the 8 circle. ?This allows me to have both controllers in the same cabinet.? For 160 meters, The 4 square works very well with great F/B. ?My 8 circle works well but depending on the arrival angle of the signals the F/B varies. ?I do not think the 8 circle has ever has 30+ DB of F/B. ?I am using a ~3 foot 5/8" ground rod (8 foot rod cut into three pieces) for each antenna. ?My array is out all by itself away from any metal objects on a small hill. Lee's comment about it should have a 30+ DB F/B is interesting. ?If grounding is the key I will go out tomorrow and add more ground rods/radials and give it a try to see if it will indeed improve F/B. ?Comments? My 8 circle works not bad on 80 meters either, directional too. When I test my 8 circle/4 square and other receive antennas for F/B I try to do this during the middle of the day using ground wave from an AM broadcast station 100 miles away or so. ?This was suggested by Jose N4IS when testing the Waller Flag I built. ?When using an application called Polar plot and testing the WF I can easily see the pattern of the WF. ?This might be a trick that can be used to check F/B on other receive antennas.? I have attached a plot of the 8 circle when using Polar Plot. ?Once I started Polar Plot I switched the 8 circle through its range. ?You can read the F/B from an AM station some 80 miles away. Comments? ? Dave Anderson, K4SV Tryon, NC ?828 777-5088 ? www.K4SV.net ? On Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:54 PM, kd9sv wrote: Lee, 30db F/B is about what I am seeing on my 4sq with 80ft/side which is >located about 400ft in the clear in an open field...de gary > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On >Behalf Of Lee K7TJR >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:56 PM >To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' >Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to >work on a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on that band. >I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If >operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro >which is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. >With of course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than >the single band array. >? All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears >reasonably well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. >I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however >every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front >to back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. > >What say others? > >Lee? K7TJR > >-----Original Message----- >From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >[mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On >Behalf Of k4pi at bellsouth.net >Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM >To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > >I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter.? I notice the F/B and F/S are >mainly only good on 160.? Even on the upper portion of the BC band for >the most part the F/B is not great.? Not that I need this but I have >used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B >on the BC band and other bands.? On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the >most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and >F/S.? Just wondering if this is what others are seeing.? It receives fine. > >I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were seeing. >I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else >had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods.? Also >wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line >as recommended by ON4UN's Low Band DXing book.? I have one at the >receiver end built from K9YC data.? My feedline is about 450 ft long >being cable TV hardline.? It is grounded once in the middle. > >Would like to hear from others on their experience. > >73 Mike K4PI >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >ons_h > >izantennas.com > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >ons_h >izantennas.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >ons_hizantennas.com > > > _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From davek4sv at yahoo.com Sat Nov 30 21:05:15 2013 From: davek4sv at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 21:05:15 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE In-Reply-To: References: <1385857091.30655.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6630E4C8-D34E-47BB-B0AB-85D305001B16@yahoo.com> Hi Lee, Can you recommend a method of additional grounding ? The red dirt around here sucks as ground. I have 6 inch wide copper tape and some 2 inch tape. I can get anything. Thanks, Dave Anderson, K4SV Sent from my iPad > On Nov 30, 2013, at 8:34 PM, "Lee K7TJR" wrote: > > I just ran some theoretical plots of the array at 1.84 MHZ. The 200 foot dia > 8 element array shows 44 dB of F/B. Of course it is unlikely we would ever > see that much. However I routinely see 30+ dB in practice. I scaled all > phases on an 8 element 200 foot dia array to 1MHz in the BCB and sure > enough as I remembered there is little if any low angle pattern. It is > almost circular with less than 10dB of F/B. This 8 element array was > designed to only work from 1.8 to 2 MHz. Or 3.5 to 4 MHZ when scaled to 100 > foot dia and new delay cables. > Interestingly enough I have tried the Broadcast F/B determination many > times. What I have discovered is that not all BCB stations seem to have that > ground wave low angle and do not always show F/B on the arrays. No, I have > not tried to figure out why. Maybe it's a mix of high angle skywave and > ground wave. What I do know for a fact is that early morning signals > sometimes come in at high angles and show little directivity for a period > during sunrise. > A classic example of that was FT5XO that came in solid on arrays and > beverages until late in the sunrise and then switched to no directivity and > best reception on my TX vertical. > We have had some recent reports from Alaska where there is no soil only > rock dust from glaciers. The reports showed that at low frequencies like 160 > a Hi-Z array needed some extra ground help. Adding some short radials has > helped the situation but I remember back to my original research where I > found radials to be pretty sensitive to placement. I also at times have > suggested shallow burying of a plate of metal to increase the surface area > of the element ground to the earth. My early research indicated this to be a > bit more stable than hoping to place radials accurately. Accuracy is why > these arrays are able to do what they do. > Lee K7TJR > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Dave Anderson, K4SV > Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 4:18 PM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE > > Hi Everyone, > > I have had my 200' 8 circle for nearly 2 years now. In my case I have > installed my 4 square inside of the 8 circle. This allows me to have both > controllers in the same cabinet. > > For 160 meters, > The 4 square works very well with great F/B. My 8 circle works well but > depending on the arrival angle of the signals the F/B varies. I do not > think the 8 circle has ever has 30+ DB of F/B. I am using a ~3 foot 5/8" > ground rod (8 foot rod cut into three pieces) for each antenna. My array is > out all by itself away from any metal objects on a small hill. > > Lee's comment about it should have a 30+ DB F/B is interesting. If > grounding is the key I will go out tomorrow and add more ground rods/radials > and give it a try to see if it will indeed improve F/B. Comments? > > My 8 circle works not bad on 80 meters either, directional too. > > When I test my 8 circle/4 square and other receive antennas for F/B I try to > do this during the middle of the day using ground wave from an AM broadcast > station 100 miles away or so. This was suggested by Jose N4IS when testing > the Waller Flag I built. When using an application called Polar plot and > testing the WF I can easily see the pattern of the WF. This might be a > trick that can be used to check F/B on other receive antennas. > > I have attached a plot of the 8 circle when using Polar Plot. Once I > started Polar Plot I switched the 8 circle through its range. You can read > the F/B from an AM station some 80 miles away. > > Comments? > > Dave Anderson, K4SV > Tryon, NC > 828 777-5088 > > www.K4SV.net > > > > > On Saturday, November 30, 2013 6:54 PM, kd9sv wrote: > > Lee, 30db F/B is about what I am seeing on my 4sq with 80ft/side which is >> located about 400ft in the clear in an open field...de gary >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >> [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On >> Behalf Of Lee K7TJR >> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 5:56 PM >> To: 'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions' >> Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE >> >> This will be an interesting thread. The Hi-Z 8A was only designed to >> work on a single band, but to produce the best SNR currently available on > that band. >> I suspect your observations are what I would expect on other bands. If >> operating on multiple bands, I would suggest changing over to a 4-8Pro >> which is a 3 band array and shows reasonable directivity on all three. >> With of course, slightly less available SNR of received signals than >> the single band array. >> All that being said, I have heard that the 8A actually hears >> reasonably well on 80 Meters while not showing much directivity. >> I personally have not seen the need for common mode protection however >> every install is usually different. If you are seeing 30+ dB of front >> to back ratio on 160 meters I suspect your ground rods are quite adequate. >> >> What say others? >> >> Lee K7TJR >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions >> [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On >> Behalf Of k4pi at bellsouth.net >> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 2:13 PM >> To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >> Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] DIRECTIVITIY 8 CIRCLE >> >> I have an 8 circle in 200 ft diameter. I notice the F/B and F/S are >> mainly only good on 160. Even on the upper portion of the BC band for >> the most part the F/B is not great. Not that I need this but I have >> used Hi Z 4 squares with 90 ft on a side and they seem to have good F/B >> on the BC band and other bands. On 80 with the 8 circle I can tell the >> most predominant direction of a station but there is little F/B and >> F/S. Just wondering if this is what others are seeing. It receives fine. >> >> I am well pleased with the system but just wondered what others were > seeing. >> I am using only a single 4 ft ground rod and wondered if anyone else >> had seen any improvement of the system with more ground rods. Also >> wondered if anyone else was using common mode chokes in the feed line >> as recommended by ON4UN's Low Band DXing book. I have one at the >> receiver end built from K9YC data. My feedline is about 450 ft long >> being cable TV hardline. It is grounded once in the middle. >> >> Would like to hear from others on their experience. >> >> 73 Mike K4PI >> _______________________________________________ >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >> ons_h >> >> izantennas.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >> ons_h >> izantennas.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com >> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussi >> ons_hizantennas.com > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > izantennas.com