From randyn1kwf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 06:42:29 2012 From: randyn1kwf at gmail.com (Randy Lake) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 06:42:29 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly Message-ID: Good morning. I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can barely get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the 80ft distance. I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then the element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. The relays in the controller all work correctly. The LED's are all on at each amp. The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the feedline in the shack. Issues: The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding additional ground rods or radials at each vertical. Any thoughts or comments ? Randy N1KWF -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From n1rj at roadrunner.com Tue Sep 18 07:51:52 2012 From: n1rj at roadrunner.com (Roger D Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:51:52 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> Hi Randy.... The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the high impedance preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from the preamp antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 volts. 73, Roger On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: > Good morning. > I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I > think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can barely > get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. > I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the > 80ft distance. > I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to > angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then the > element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the > angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. > The relays in the controller all work correctly. > The LED's are all on at each amp. > The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. > The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. > I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the > feedline in the shack. > > Issues: > The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. > directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. > > I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding additional > ground rods or radials at each vertical. > > Any thoughts or comments ? > > Randy N1KWF > -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ From randyn1kwf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 08:30:23 2012 From: randyn1kwf at gmail.com (Randy Lake) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:30:23 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last year by Lee and said to be ok. I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and they were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson wrote: > Hi Randy.... > > The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the > high impedance > preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from the > preamp > antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 volts. > > 73, Roger > > > On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: > >> Good morning. >> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I >> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can barely >> get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. >> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the >> 80ft distance. >> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to >> angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then the >> element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the >> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. >> The relays in the controller all work correctly. >> The LED's are all on at each amp. >> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. >> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. >> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the >> feedline in the shack. >> >> Issues: >> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. >> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. >> >> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding additional >> ground rods or radials at each vertical. >> >> Any thoughts or comments ? >> >> Randy N1KWF >> >> > -- > Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > http://www.usslibertyveterans.**org/ > http://www.gtr5.com/ > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From f6bki at orange.fr Tue Sep 18 08:41:04 2012 From: f6bki at orange.fr (f6bki at orange.fr) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:41:04 -0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> Hi Randy , is your TX antenna well detuned ? 73 Jacques F6BKI -----Message d'origine----- From: Randy Lake Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:30 PM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last year by Lee and said to be ok. I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and they were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson wrote: > Hi Randy.... > > The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the > high impedance > preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from the > preamp > antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 volts. > > 73, Roger > > > On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: > >> Good morning. >> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I >> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can >> barely >> get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. >> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the >> 80ft distance. >> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to >> angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then >> the >> element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the >> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. >> The relays in the controller all work correctly. >> The LED's are all on at each amp. >> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. >> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. >> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the >> feedline in the shack. >> >> Issues: >> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. >> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. >> >> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding >> additional >> ground rods or radials at each vertical. >> >> Any thoughts or comments ? >> >> Randy N1KWF >> >> > -- > Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > http://www.usslibertyveterans.**org/ > http://www.gtr5.com/ > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com From randyn1kwf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 08:43:52 2012 From: randyn1kwf at gmail.com (Randy Lake) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:43:52 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: <138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> <138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> Message-ID: The 40m beam is at 100' about 200'away The 80m dipole is at 95' about 200' away The 160m shunt fed tower has not been completed yet. Thanks. Randy On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:41 AM, wrote: > Hi Randy , is your TX antenna well detuned ? > 73 > Jacques F6BKI > > -----Message d'origine----- From: Randy Lake > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:30 PM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-**zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working > properly > > > Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last year by > Lee and said to be ok. > I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and they > were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson >wrote: > > Hi Randy.... >> >> The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the >> high impedance >> preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from the >> preamp >> antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 volts. >> >> 73, Roger >> >> >> On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: >> >> Good morning. >>> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I >>> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can >>> barely >>> get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. >>> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the >>> 80ft distance. >>> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to >>> angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then >>> the >>> element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the >>> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. >>> The relays in the controller all work correctly. >>> The LED's are all on at each amp. >>> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. >>> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. >>> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the >>> feedline in the shack. >>> >>> Issues: >>> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. >>> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. >>> >>> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding >>> additional >>> ground rods or radials at each vertical. >>> >>> Any thoughts or comments ? >>> >>> Randy N1KWF >>> >>> >>> -- >> Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) >> http://www.usslibertyveterans.****org/ > usslibertyveterans.org/ > >> http://www.gtr5.com/ >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@****hizantennas.com> zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com >> > >> http://mail.hizantennas.com/****mailman/listinfo/hi-** >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**h**izantennas.com < >> http://mail.**hizantennas.com/mailman/**listinfo/hi-** >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com >> > >> >> > > > -- > Randy Lake N1KWF > 73 Gunn Rd. > Keene,NH > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From k3lr at k3lr.com Tue Sep 18 10:45:00 2012 From: k3lr at k3lr.com (Tim Duffy K3LR) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:45:00 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com><138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> Message-ID: Randy - if you measure zero volts from each antenna element to ground (as you said below) - there is a problem! You should have about 5 volts DC on each element to ground. 73, Tim K3LR -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Randy Lake Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:44 AM To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly The 40m beam is at 100' about 200'away The 80m dipole is at 95' about 200' away The 160m shunt fed tower has not been completed yet. Thanks. Randy On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:41 AM, wrote: > Hi Randy , is your TX antenna well detuned ? > 73 > Jacques F6BKI > > -----Message d'origine----- From: Randy Lake > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:30 PM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-**zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working > properly > > > Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last year by > Lee and said to be ok. > I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and they > were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson >wrote: > > Hi Randy.... >> >> The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the >> high impedance >> preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from the >> preamp >> antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 volts. >> >> 73, Roger >> >> >> On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: >> >> Good morning. >>> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. I >>> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can >>> barely >>> get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. >>> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the >>> 80ft distance. >>> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to >>> angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then >>> the >>> element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above the >>> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. >>> The relays in the controller all work correctly. >>> The LED's are all on at each amp. >>> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. >>> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. >>> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the >>> feedline in the shack. >>> >>> Issues: >>> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. >>> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. >>> >>> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding >>> additional >>> ground rods or radials at each vertical. >>> >>> Any thoughts or comments ? >>> >>> Randy N1KWF >>> >>> >>> -- >> Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) >> http://www.usslibertyveterans.****org/ > usslibertyveterans.org/ > >> http://www.gtr5.com/ >> >> >> ______________________________****_________________ >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@****hizantennas.com> zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com >> > >> http://mail.hizantennas.com/****mailman/listinfo/hi-** >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**h**izantennas.com < >> http://mail.**hizantennas.com/mailman/**listinfo/hi-** >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com >> > >> >> > > > -- > Randy Lake N1KWF > 73 Gunn Rd. > Keene,NH > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > > ______________________________**_________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From randyn1kwf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:53:05 2012 From: randyn1kwf at gmail.com (Randy Lake) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:53:05 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> <138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> Message-ID: Thanks Tim. I will pull the amps off and bring them in and compare to a new one that Lee sent me last year that he built that has not been used yet and see where I went wrong. Appreciate the help. Randy On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Tim Duffy K3LR wrote: > Randy - if you measure zero volts from each antenna element to ground (as > you said below) - there is a problem! You should have about 5 volts DC on > each element to ground. > > 73, > Tim K3LR > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf > Of > Randy Lake > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:44 AM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working > properly > > The 40m beam is at 100' about 200'away > The 80m dipole is at 95' about 200' away > The 160m shunt fed tower has not been completed yet. > > Thanks. Randy > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:41 AM, wrote: > > > Hi Randy , is your TX antenna well detuned ? > > 73 > > Jacques F6BKI > > > > -----Message d'origine----- From: Randy Lake > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:30 PM > > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-**zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working > > properly > > > > > > Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last year by > > Lee and said to be ok. > > I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and they > > were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson > >wrote: > > > > Hi Randy.... > >> > >> The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to the > >> high impedance > >> preamps. What preamps are you using? I would measure the voltage from > the > >> preamp > >> antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 > volts. > >> > >> 73, Roger > >> > >> > >> On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: > >> > >> Good morning. > >>> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. > I > >>> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I can > >>> barely > >>> get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. > >>> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft in the > >>> 80ft distance. > >>> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are mounted to > >>> angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc attached to that then > >>> the > >>> element mounted inside the PVC with the element held about 8in above > the > >>> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. > >>> The relays in the controller all work correctly. > >>> The LED's are all on at each amp. > >>> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. > >>> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. > >>> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on the > >>> feedline in the shack. > >>> > >>> Issues: > >>> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. > >>> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. > >>> > >>> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding > >>> additional > >>> ground rods or radials at each vertical. > >>> > >>> Any thoughts or comments ? > >>> > >>> Randy N1KWF > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >> Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > >> http://www.usslibertyveterans.****org/ >> usslibertyveterans.org/ > > >> http://www.gtr5.com/ > >> > >> > >> ______________________________****_________________ > >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@****hizantennas.com >> > zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > izantennas.com> > >> > > >> > http://mail.hizantennas.com/****mailman/listinfo/hi-**< > http://mail.hizantenn > as.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-**> > >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**h**izantennas.com >< > >> http://mail.**hizantennas.com/mailman/**listinfo/hi-** > >> > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Randy Lake N1KWF > > 73 Gunn Rd. > > Keene,NH > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > s at hizantennas.com> > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > > > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > s at hizantennas.com> > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > > > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > > > > > > -- > Randy Lake N1KWF > 73 Gunn Rd. > Keene,NH > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > izantennas.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From contact at hizantennas.com Tue Sep 18 11:28:38 2012 From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:28:38 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: <50586058.9090304@roadrunner.com> <138C6E779B764323B0EF392E5208CBCF@ASUS> Message-ID: <026601cd95b2$48bb3c80$da31b580$@com> Hi Randy, Place your DVM across the element terminal and the ground terminal. Typical E is ~4.6 +/-. 73 Dick KO7N -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Randy Lake Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:53 AM To: k3lr at k3lr.com; Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly Thanks Tim. I will pull the amps off and bring them in and compare to a new one that Lee sent me last year that he built that has not been used yet and see where I went wrong. Appreciate the help. Randy On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 10:45 AM, Tim Duffy K3LR wrote: > Randy - if you measure zero volts from each antenna element to ground > (as you said below) - there is a problem! You should have about 5 > volts DC on each element to ground. > > 73, > Tim K3LR > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On > Behalf Of Randy Lake > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 7:44 AM > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working > properly > > The 40m beam is at 100' about 200'away The 80m dipole is at 95' about > 200' away The 160m shunt fed tower has not been completed yet. > > Thanks. Randy > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 8:41 AM, wrote: > > > Hi Randy , is your TX antenna well detuned ? > > 73 > > Jacques F6BKI > > > > -----Message d'origine----- From: Randy Lake > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:30 PM > > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-**zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not > > working properly > > > > > > Hi Roger. I am using the original preamps. They were tested last > > year by Lee and said to be ok. > > I just went out to measure the V at the antenna term and ground and > > they were all the same. 0volts. The LED's are all on. > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:51 AM, Roger D Johnson > > > >wrote: > > > > Hi Randy.... > >> > >> The grounds should make very little difference in this array due to > >> the high impedance preamps. What preamps are you using? I would > >> measure the voltage from > the > >> preamp > >> antenna terminal to ground. They should all be the same at about 5 > volts. > >> > >> 73, Roger > >> > >> > >> On 9/18/2012 6:42 AM, Randy Lake wrote: > >> > >> Good morning. > >>> I am trying to get an old 4sq setup working finally with not much luck. > I > >>> think it may have something to do with my ground or soil type.I > >>> can barely get a 2 ft ground rod in without hitting rock. > >>> I just moved the array to a more level area. Slopes maybe 1-2 ft > >>> in the 80ft distance. > >>> I am using 19' elements (old 20m tapered elements). They are > >>> mounted to angle iron driven into the ground with 1 1/4 pvc > >>> attached to that then the element mounted inside the PVC with the > >>> element held about 8in above > the > >>> angle iron inside the PVC. The ground rod is next to the angle iron. > >>> The relays in the controller all work correctly. > >>> The LED's are all on at each amp. > >>> The delay lines and element feed lines are all factory cut. > >>> The feed line feeding the array is tested as okay. > >>> I am also using a Hi-Z preamp out at the array and a 75-50 ohm on > >>> the feedline in the shack. > >>> > >>> Issues: > >>> The noise level does not change much at all compared to the TX antenna. > >>> directivity is minimal, barely noticeable. > >>> > >>> I am thinking I may remove the preamp and am considering adding > >>> additional ground rods or radials at each vertical. > >>> > >>> Any thoughts or comments ? > >>> > >>> Randy N1KWF > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >> Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > >> http://www.usslibertyveterans.****org/ >> usslibertyveterans.org/ > > >> http://www.gtr5.com/ > >> > >> > >> ______________________________****_________________ > >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > >> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@****hizantennas.com >> > zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > izantennas.com> > >> > > >> > http://mail.hizantennas.com/****mailman/listinfo/hi-**< > http://mail.hizantenn > as.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-**> > >> zreceivingarraydiscussions_**h**izantennas.com > >> >< > >> http://mail.**hizantennas.com/mailman/**listinfo/hi-** > >> > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Randy Lake N1KWF > > 73 Gunn Rd. > > Keene,NH > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > s at hizantennas.com> > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > > > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions@**hizantennas.com > s at hizantennas.com> > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/**mailman/listinfo/hi-** > > > zreceivingarraydiscussions_**hizantennas.com< > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mai > lman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com> > > > > > > -- > Randy Lake N1KWF > 73 Gunn Rd. > Keene,NH > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscuss > ions_h > izantennas.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscuss > ions_hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From k7tjr at msn.com Tue Sep 18 11:54:36 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:54:36 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly Message-ID: Gm Randy, There were a few Hi-Z amps that were built AC coupled in the early days and did not show the 5Volts on the element terminals. In that case you might have to pop the cover on the amp and measure on one or the other end of the 200 ohm resistor in the circuit. One way to check all the amps is to tune in a BC signal or constant signal and remove both delay lines. As you select a direction then the array output will only be from the single element in the direction selected. They must all have very close to the the same output level or there is something wrong. Any element not producing will destroy the pattern of the array. Also if there is a marginal connection on the ground shield of the output coax to the shack, the whole array will just act like a big piece of wire laying on the ground and performance will be bad. Also double check that one of the element/ground terminals is not reversed on any of the Hi-Z amps. I will send you a private e-mail with my phone number so we can get this straightened away. I doubt that the ground conditions are causing much of a problem. Lee K7TJR From k7tjr at msn.com Tue Sep 18 16:24:23 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:24:23 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly Message-ID: What is the proper way to verify a good connection to the shield on the coax feeding the array ? I am going to send the components in to have Lee check them out as something is not the way it should be. Customer service at its' best ! Randy On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Lee K7TJR wrote: Gm Randy, There were a few Hi-Z amps that were built AC coupled in the early days and did not show the 5Volts on the element terminals. In that case you might have to pop the cover on the amp and measure on one or the other end of the 200 ohm resistor in the circuit. One way to check all the amps is to tune in a BC signal or constant signal and remove both delay lines. As you select a direction then the array output will only be from the single element in the direction selected. They must all have very close to the the same output level or there is something wrong. Any element not producing will destroy the pattern of the array. Also if there is a marginal connection on the ground shield of the output coax to the shack, the whole array will just act like a big piece of wire laying on the ground and performance will be bad. Also double check that one of the element/ground terminals is not reversed on any of the Hi-Z amps. I will send you a private e-mail with my phone number so we can get this straightened away. I doubt that the ground conditions are causing much of a problem. Lee K7TJR -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From w7sx at live.com Tue Sep 18 16:48:26 2012 From: w7sx at live.com (Robert Zavrel) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:48:26 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] checking 4-square performance Message-ID: Lee/Dick: Post if you think this might help...also you might want to include this simple and inexpensive idea (or something like it) into your next controller(s). Here's the post: There have been some posts regarding difficulty in getting four-square antennas to lower noise and provide directivity. I am using the Hi-Z pre-amps with a homebrew selector/phasor. One of the features I included might be added to any commercial controller. I bring the four antenna feedlines into a box where I can switch each one in or out of service. This allows me to compare received signals (including noise levels) from each individual antenna....then switch all four back in for operation. As an added check, I switch a milliameter in series with each antenna's power lead. For this test it is not necessary to decouple the meter through RFC's, since you're only momentarily checking a static current. I am amazed at how similar the four Hi-Z supplu currents are (within 1%!). This test simultaneously checks the integrity of each coaxial cable/connector run and each pre-amp. Its reassuring when snow is flying at 2 AM you can do a complete system check from your shack. BTW, I've been using the Hi-Z amps for four years and they have and are performing perfectly. Bob Zavrel, W7SX From n4cc at cableone.net Tue Sep 18 17:18:32 2012 From: n4cc at cableone.net (GREG WILSON) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:18:32 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Did you check to see if you're getting the voltage at the far end of the control wire? 73 de Greg On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > > > What is the proper way to verify a good connection to the shield on the > coax feeding the array ? > > > I am going to send the components in to have Lee check them out as > something is not the way it should be. > Customer service at its' best ! > > > Randy > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > > Gm Randy, There were a few Hi-Z amps that were built AC coupled in the > early days and did not show the 5Volts on the element terminals. In that > case you might have to pop the cover on the amp and measure on one or the > other end of the 200 ohm resistor in the circuit. One way to check all the > amps is to tune in a BC signal or constant signal and remove both delay > lines. As you select a direction then the array output will only be from > the single element in the direction selected. They must all have very close > to the the same output level or there is something wrong. Any element not > producing will destroy the pattern of the array. Also if there is a > marginal connection on the ground shield of the output coax to the shack, > the whole array will just act like a big piece of wire laying on the ground > and performance will be bad. Also double check that one of the > element/ground terminals is not reversed on any of the Hi-Z amps. I will > send you a private e-mail with my phone number so we can get this > straightened away. I doubt that the ground conditions are causing much of a > problem. > Lee K7TJR > > > > > > > > -- > Randy Lake N1KWF > 73 Gunn Rd. > Keene,NH > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > From randyn1kwf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 18:07:44 2012 From: randyn1kwf at gmail.com (Randy Lake) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:07:44 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Array (4sq) not working properly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Greg. Thanks for the reply. I have 2.8V at the phasing unit. I am sending it back to Lee to have it fixed. The LED's were on at all verticals. These are the very early version that did not have 5v at the antenna inputs. THANKS ! 73, Randy Lake N1KWF On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 5:18 PM, GREG WILSON wrote: > Did you check to see if you're getting the voltage at the far end of the > control wire? 73 de Greg > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > > > > > > > What is the proper way to verify a good connection to the shield on the > > coax feeding the array ? > > > > > > I am going to send the components in to have Lee check them out as > > something is not the way it should be. > > Customer service at its' best ! > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 11:47 AM, Lee K7TJR wrote: > > > > Gm Randy, There were a few Hi-Z amps that were built AC coupled in the > > early days and did not show the 5Volts on the element terminals. In that > > case you might have to pop the cover on the amp and measure on one or the > > other end of the 200 ohm resistor in the circuit. One way to check all > the > > amps is to tune in a BC signal or constant signal and remove both delay > > lines. As you select a direction then the array output will only be from > > the single element in the direction selected. They must all have very > close > > to the the same output level or there is something wrong. Any element not > > producing will destroy the pattern of the array. Also if there is a > > marginal connection on the ground shield of the output coax to the shack, > > the whole array will just act like a big piece of wire laying on the > ground > > and performance will be bad. Also double check that one of the > > element/ground terminals is not reversed on any of the Hi-Z amps. I will > > send you a private e-mail with my phone number so we can get this > > straightened away. I doubt that the ground conditions are causing much > of a > > problem. > > Lee K7TJR > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Randy Lake N1KWF > > 73 Gunn Rd. > > Keene,NH > > _______________________________________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > > > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > -- Randy Lake N1KWF 73 Gunn Rd. Keene,NH From turnbull at net1.ie Wed Sep 19 15:14:36 2012 From: turnbull at net1.ie (Doug Turnbull) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:14:36 +0100 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 square Message-ID: Gentlemen and Yls, I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. 73 Doug EI2CN From kd9sv at comcast.net Wed Sep 19 15:30:16 2012 From: kd9sv at comcast.net (kd9sv) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:30:16 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square Gentlemen and Yls, I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. 73 Doug EI2CN _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From n1rj at roadrunner.com Wed Sep 19 15:58:44 2012 From: n1rj at roadrunner.com (Roger D Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square In-Reply-To: <9D.31.28278.15D1A505@cdptpa-mxlb.mail.rr.com> References: <9D.31.28278.15D1A505@cdptpa-mxlb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105@roadrunner.com> It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent this? 73, Roger 73, Roger On 9/19/2012 3:30 PM, kd9sv wrote: > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Doug Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4square > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > izantennas.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ From w7sx at live.com Thu Sep 20 12:58:54 2012 From: w7sx at live.com (Robert Zavrel) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:58:54 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can eliminate parasitic effects by eliminating ALL 1/2 wave (or close) equivalent circuits coupled to the antenna. For example, a 1/4 wave vertical, L network, coaxial line together with the ground system will "look' like a 1/2 wave parasitic element. Switching the bottom of the antenna (via a relay) out of the circuit will eliminate the parasitic effects as a 1/4 wave conductor by itself has little effect. Shorting the antenna to ground is NOT A GOOD IDEA, as it may create an excellent parasitic element...much better to open up the base. IN the unlikely event you are using a 1/2 wave vertical, you will need to detune it by inserting a capacitor or inductor to ground to detune the resonant frequency. Assuming the inverted L is an equivalent 1/4 wave, simply switching the antenna base off the base tuner will do the job. Towers with grounded bases can be very difficult if the tower is near electrical 1/4 wavelength (about 100 feet high with antennas) for TB. If you are using a short antenna (like 1/4 wave), you can use a heavy open frame relay instead of a vaccuum relay, since this will be a low Z point (high current, but low voltage), but seal it up against bugs and weather. Also, an exellent cost effective substitute for vaccuum relays is offered as Russian surplus: http://www.nd2x.net/ur4ll.html Dr. Alex is a good guy. RF Relay >1000 W (for HF) open-frame relay, 24-27VDC coil (use for HV, e.g. 3kV 2A is no problem; NOTE: 20A at 30 MHz ) - $15 Plate with two installed - $30 Plate with four installed - $60 + shipping from the Ukraine. I've used these relays for several years and they are every bit as good as vaccuum for high RF voltages and currents. The relay coils consume about 500 mA each, so you'll need a hefty control supply. Buy several to make it cost effective with shipping....these are like gold for heavy RF switching. Bob Zavrel, W7SX > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:00:09 -0400 > > Send Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list submissions to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-owner at hizantennas.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Detuning antennas when using 4 square (Doug Turnbull) > 2. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (kd9sv) > 3. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (Roger D Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:14:36 +0100 > From: "Doug Turnbull" > To: > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4 square > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:30:16 -0400 > From: "kd9sv" > To: "'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions'" > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Doug Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4square > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > izantennas.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 > From: Roger D Johnson > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor > at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. > Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the > feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent > this? > > 73, Roger > > > 73, Roger > > On 9/19/2012 3:30 PM, kd9sv wrote: > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > > Doug Turnbull > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > > 4square > > > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > > izantennas.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > > -- > Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ > http://www.gtr5.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > End of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 > ************************************************************ From turnbull at net1.ie Thu Sep 20 15:43:25 2012 From: turnbull at net1.ie (Doug Turnbull) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:43:25 +0100 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Gentlemen, I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information you may have. 73 Doug EI2CN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- , I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. 73 Doug EI2CN ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 From: Roger D Johnson To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent this? 73, Roger From n1rj at roadrunner.com Thu Sep 20 16:02:11 2012 From: n1rj at roadrunner.com (Roger D Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:02:11 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505B7643.4090707@roadrunner.com> Hi Doug.... Sorry I got off track when I thought you said inverted V. Describe your inverted L. Vertical height, horizontal length, any matching circuit at base, any traps, etc. 73, Roger On 9/20/2012 3:43 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote: > Gentlemen, > I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to > decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they > available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook > close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial > system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so > these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would > be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground > radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information > you may have. > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > , > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > ------------------------------ > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Doug Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4square > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 > From: Roger D Johnson > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center > conductor > at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves > on 80m. > Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor > of the > feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to > prevent > this? > > 73, Roger > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ From kd9sv at comcast.net Thu Sep 20 17:56:22 2012 From: kd9sv at comcast.net (kd9sv) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:56:22 -0400 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Doug, go to max gain systems (or google vacuum relays) Allan Bond sells the used RJ-1A or another similar unit with a 12v coil which is easier to interface. They are very reasonable and with 8ms op/rel times can be used even with a qsk system. BTW, Alpha uses RJ-1's in their amplifiers. Probably on the ground radials would be less of a problem than raised radials for re-radiation...also this could still be a problem with RX on 80 meters as your antenna would be 1/2 wave on 80...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:43 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq Gentlemen, I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information you may have. 73 Doug EI2CN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- , I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. 73 Doug EI2CN ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 From: Roger D Johnson To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent this? 73, Roger _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com From turnbull at net1.ie Sat Sep 22 12:03:21 2012 From: turnbull at net1.ie (Doug Turnbull) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 17:03:21 +0100 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74AFDBF0962A4CF882E3C0FC9006EC64@DOUG1> Dear OMs, Thank you all for the information. The inverted L is runs 85 to 100 feet vertical and 47 to 32 feet in the horizontal depending on whether there is a contest on. There are sixteen raised radials sloping up to sixteen feet above ground and run through a small wood. These radials are over 120 ground radials of lengths up to sixty feet used for a SteppIR vertical. The SteppIR big (80 - 6m) vertical is too close at 25 feet to the inverted L but such is life and on TB I home the vertical. Again, I thank all for the information. 73 Doug EI2CN -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com Sent: 20 September 2012 23:18 To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5 Send Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list submissions to hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com You can reach the person managing the list at hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-owner at hizantennas.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 (Robert Zavrel) 2. Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (Doug Turnbull) 3. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (Roger D Johnson) 4. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4 sq (kd9sv) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 09:58:54 -0700 From: Robert Zavrel To: Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You can eliminate parasitic effects by eliminating ALL 1/2 wave (or close) equivalent circuits coupled to the antenna. For example, a 1/4 wave vertical, L network, coaxial line together with the ground system will "look' like a 1/2 wave parasitic element. Switching the bottom of the antenna (via a relay) out of the circuit will eliminate the parasitic effects as a 1/4 wave conductor by itself has little effect. Shorting the antenna to ground is NOT A GOOD IDEA, as it may create an excellent parasitic element...much better to open up the base. IN the unlikely event you are using a 1/2 wave vertical, you will need to detune it by inserting a capacitor or inductor to ground to detune the resonant frequency. Assuming the inverted L is an equivalent 1/4 wave, simply switching the antenna base off the base tuner will do the job. Towers with grounded bases can be very difficult if the tower is near electrical 1/4 wavelength (about 100 feet high with antennas) for TB. If you are using a short antenna (like 1/4 wave), you can use a heavy open frame relay instead of a vaccuum relay, since this will be a low Z point (high current, but low voltage), but seal it up against bugs and weather. Also, an exellent cost effective substitute for vaccuum relays is offered as Russian surplus: http://www.nd2x.net/ur4ll.html Dr. Alex is a good guy. RF Relay >1000 W (for HF) open-frame relay, 24-27VDC coil (use for HV, e.g. 3kV 2A is no problem; NOTE: 20A at 30 MHz ) - $15 Plate with two installed - $30 Plate with four installed - $60 + shipping from the Ukraine. I've used these relays for several years and they are every bit as good as vaccuum for high RF voltages and currents. The relay coils consume about 500 mA each, so you'll need a hefty control supply. Buy several to make it cost effective with shipping....these are like gold for heavy RF switching. Bob Zavrel, W7SX > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:00:09 -0400 > > Send Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list submissions to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-owner at hizantennas.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Detuning antennas when using 4 square (Doug Turnbull) > 2. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (kd9sv) > 3. Re: Detuning antennas when using 4square (Roger D Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 20:14:36 +0100 > From: "Doug Turnbull" > To: > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4 square > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:30:16 -0400 > From: "kd9sv" > To: "'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions'" > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Doug Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4square > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > izantennas.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 > From: Roger D Johnson > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor > at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. > Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the > feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent > this? > > 73, Roger > > > 73, Roger > > On 9/19/2012 3:30 PM, kd9sv wrote: > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > > Doug Turnbull > > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > > 4square > > > > Gentlemen and Yls, > > > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > > > > > I am most pleased that Hi-Z is again actively trading. The product > > is good and the service of equal value. Long may this company be with us. > > > > > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h > > izantennas.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com > > > > -- > Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) > http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ > http://www.gtr5.com/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com > > > End of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 4 > ************************************************************ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:43:25 +0100 From: "Doug Turnbull" To: Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gentlemen, I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information you may have. 73 Doug EI2CN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- , I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. 73 Doug EI2CN ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 From: Roger D Johnson To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent this? 73, Roger ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:02:11 -0400 From: Roger D Johnson To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq Message-ID: <505B7643.4090707 at roadrunner.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi Doug.... Sorry I got off track when I thought you said inverted V. Describe your inverted L. Vertical height, horizontal length, any matching circuit at base, any traps, etc. 73, Roger On 9/20/2012 3:43 PM, Doug Turnbull wrote: > Gentlemen, > I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to > decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they > available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook > close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial > system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so > these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would > be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground > radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information > you may have. > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > , > > I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L > is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an > interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the > closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the > inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is > part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB > the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not > properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. > > > > > 73 Doug EI2CN > > > > ------------------------------ > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna > from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not > re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com > [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of > Doug Turnbull > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using > 4square > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 > From: Roger D Johnson > To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions > > Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when > using 4square > Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center > conductor > at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves > on 80m. > Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor > of the > feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to > prevent > this? > > 73, Roger > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com > -- Remember the Liberty (AGTR-5) http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/ http://www.gtr5.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:56:22 -0400 From: "kd9sv" To: "'Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions'" Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, go to max gain systems (or google vacuum relays) Allan Bond sells the used RJ-1A or another similar unit with a 12v coil which is easier to interface. They are very reasonable and with 8ms op/rel times can be used even with a qsk system. BTW, Alpha uses RJ-1's in their amplifiers. Probably on the ground radials would be less of a problem than raised radials for re-radiation...also this could still be a problem with RX on 80 meters as your antenna would be 1/2 wave on 80...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 3:43 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4 sq Gentlemen, I am using a good balun on the feed line of the TB Inverted L to decouple it. Gary, who manufactures the vacuum relay and where are they available? I understand that you are suggesting to break the sky hook close to the point where it connects to the transmit antenna the radial system being left in place. I am presently using raised radials and so these may complicate the issue. I wonder if ground mounted radials would be as problematic as I am likely to make the change to an extensive ground radial system. Thank you for advice already given and any more information you may have. 73 Doug EI2CN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- , I am using a Hi-Z four square and find that then my 160M inverted L is down that it works better on both TB and 80M. Obviously there is an interaction and yes it is certainly closer than two hundred feet to the closest point of the 4 sq. What method of detuning antennas such as the inverted L is normally used? I suppose a relay switching in or out is part of the system and the problem then becomes that when operating on TB the TX antenna must be detuned possibly slowing down operations and if not properly thought out problematic for a power amplifier. 73 Doug EI2CN ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Doug, I would use an RJ-1A vacuum relay to open (disconnect) the antenna from the feedline...if no current can flow in the antenna wire it should not re-radiate and bother the 4 square...de gary -----Original Message----- From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com [mailto:hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-bounces at hizantennas.com] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 3:15 PM To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:58:44 -0400 From: Roger D Johnson To: Hi-Z Receiving Array Discussions Subject: Re: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Detuning antennas when using 4square Message-ID: <505A23F4.6080105 at roadrunner.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It's a bit more complicated then that. If you open the feedline center conductor at the antenna (Ithink that's what you mean), you still have two half waves on 80m. Also, you have the combined length of half the inv V and the outer conductor of the feedline that's resonant somewhere! Doug..do you have a good balun to prevent this? 73, Roger _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_h izantennas.com End of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 19, Issue 5 ************************************************************