From k9uw at wi-net.com Sun Oct 7 21:08:44 2012 From: k9uw at wi-net.com (Mike, K9UW) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:08:44 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Troubleshooting help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5072279C.1020006@wi-net.com> Hello, everyone! I just deployed my 4-8 Pro for the season and am having issues. On 40 meters, there seems to be a stronger - and equal - RX signal on all 4 directions (NE, SE, SW, NW) that were assigned to the "original" 4 square system. On the remaining directions, the signal is uniformly weaker. This was noted last year as well, but the difference between the stronger and weaker directions is muted when compared to last year. This issue exists only on 40 meters. Later this evening, the signals are weak in all 8 directions and the amps can't pull signals up to match those obtained with the TX antenna. On 80 and 160 meters, all signals seem weak and there is no apparent directionality. This is also true on the broadcast band. While installing control lines, I noticed that the connections for control lines #2 and #3 seemed a bit loose. I should probably pop the cover off the box to check things out but I ran out of daylight. If there is a connection failure on control lines #2 and/or #3, that would explain the lack of directionality but not the weak signals. All amp LED's are lit. Voltages from antenna to ground vary from a low of 3.90v to a high of 4.0v. Most are at 3.97v. Voltage at the shack control switch is 13.70 The antenna system is deployed from October to April, and everything but the cables and antennas are stored indoors for the summer. Ideas? 73, de Mike, K9UW Amherst, WI From k7tjr at msn.com Sun Oct 7 21:32:24 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:32:24 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Troubleshooting help needed Message-ID: Mike, did you remember to jumper the power to the 75 Ohm amp? from the regular controller. Be sure to check the switching truth table at the shack switch as well. http://www.hizantennas.com/Array%20Switching%20Truth%20Tables-1.pdf it sounds like a direction switching problem to me. Keep me posted here or my arrl.net addr Lee K7TJR From k7tjr at msn.com Sun Oct 7 21:43:02 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 18:43:02 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Troubleshooting help needed Message-ID: Mike, there also should be no disparity between the two sets of directions. There may be a relay failure in the PnP box. I have heard that the factory can turn around repairs on nearly same day and cheap too. You might check with Lee. Lee K7TJR From kk7uv at bresnan.net Fri Oct 12 20:54:41 2012 From: kk7uv at bresnan.net (Steve Flood) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:54:41 -0600 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles Message-ID: <005001cda8dd$54466230$fcd32690$@bresnan.net> So after 10 years using the K9AY loops, I bought a HiZ3 triangle setup and installed it about 6 weeks ago. My initial observations with morning DXing on 160m these past weeks (NH8S, 3D2C, 9M2AX, RW0CR, HL5IVL) are as follows: 1. The directivity is wonderful when I first tested it on daylight AM BCB stations and early morning 160m stateside and DX. 2. The gain level is quite high compared to the K9AY. 160m band noise is S3-S5 on the HiZ. The same band noise on the K9AY (with 13dB preamp) would rarely move the S-meter. 3. The K9AY would always hear better than my omni vertical or my 80m dipole, without exception. This is especially true for the NE path to Europe where the vertical or dipole would not hear EU stations at all.. 4. While listening to the DX stations over the past weeks, signals were as good on the dipole and omni vertical as they were on the HiZ, even while the HiZ showed excellent directivity. In an email conversation with W7IUV, he explained the HiZ has a very low notch angle - around 20 degrees or below. This is evident on the EZNEC plots. The K9AY notch is more like 25 to 50 degrees depending on ground conditions and termination resistance. I wish I could set up both the K9AY and HiZ for comparisons but I don't have the space. Here's the upshot: I am surrounded by mountains that block my horizon up to 20 degrees to my NE, 14 degrees to my SW, and 10 degrees to my NW and SE. I am wondering if perhaps the HiZ is not the best antenna to use for my deep valley location, since most all of the signals I am going to hear are at higher angles. Is this why I have not had an "Oh Wow!" moment yet with the HiZ? Thanks for any tips, Steve KK7UV From turnbull at net1.ie Sat Oct 13 13:48:39 2012 From: turnbull at net1.ie (Doug Turnbull) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:48:39 +0100 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, I find your post most interesting. At my QTH both a K9AY and 4 square are in use. At times either antenna will outperform the other. I have a hard time predicting which antenna will be better at any point. My four square suffers from being too close (120 feet to my inverted L) this is also true for the K9AY. The interaction between the K9AY and four square does not seem that great - I am told this is because the K9AY is not resonant but do not quote me on this. The separation between K9AY and four square is around ninety feet at the closest point. You might try installing both your K9AY and Hi-Z3. Maybe the interaction will not be as severe as you imagine. During the winter months I normally manage to deploy some Beverages when the cattle are removed from surrounding fields. These almost always outperform either K9AY or 4 Square but then I am not able to cover all directions and so still use these antennas. A second receive antenna is also useful for diversity reception with a K3. Good luck in your experiments. It will be interesting to hear what else is said about your installation. 73 Doug EI2CN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:54:41 -0600 From: "Steve Flood" To: Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles Message-ID: <005001cda8dd$54466230$fcd32690$@bresnan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So after 10 years using the K9AY loops, I bought a HiZ3 triangle setup and installed it about 6 weeks ago. My initial observations with morning DXing on 160m these past weeks (NH8S, 3D2C, 9M2AX, RW0CR, HL5IVL) are as follows: 1. The directivity is wonderful when I first tested it on daylight AM BCB stations and early morning 160m stateside and DX. 2. The gain level is quite high compared to the K9AY. 160m band noise is S3-S5 on the HiZ. The same band noise on the K9AY (with 13dB preamp) would rarely move the S-meter. 3. The K9AY would always hear better than my omni vertical or my 80m dipole, without exception. This is especially true for the NE path to Europe where the vertical or dipole would not hear EU stations at all.. 4. While listening to the DX stations over the past weeks, signals were as good on the dipole and omni vertical as they were on the HiZ, even while the HiZ showed excellent directivity. In an email conversation with W7IUV, he explained the HiZ has a very low notch angle - around 20 degrees or below. This is evident on the EZNEC plots. The K9AY notch is more like 25 to 50 degrees depending on ground conditions and termination resistance. I wish I could set up both the K9AY and HiZ for comparisons but I don't have the space. Here's the upshot: I am surrounded by mountains that block my horizon up to 20 degrees to my NE, 14 degrees to my SW, and 10 degrees to my NW and SE. I am wondering if perhaps the HiZ is not the best antenna to use for my deep valley location, since most all of the signals I am going to hear are at higher angles. Is this why I have not had an "Oh Wow!" moment yet with the HiZ? Thanks for any tips, Steve KK7UV From w7sx at live.com Sat Oct 13 14:54:47 2012 From: w7sx at live.com (Robert Zavrel) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:54:47 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Steve, On 160 meters most long-haul DX arrives at higher angles than on higher bands...i.e about 20 degrees vs. 3 or 4 degrees on 10 meters (see ARRL Antenna Book). In order to achieve a 20 degree maximum from a horizontal antenna, the height is well over 200 feet, so unless you can get a dipole upo that high, you're better off with a vertical RX and TX antenna. The crest of the mountains surrounding you will affect the response (block some power arriving from lower angles). Much worse can be how the ground slopes for the first mile or so in any given direction. Suppose, for example, you have an upward slope of 5 degrees for the first mile from your antenna to Europe. IN this situation your take-off angle will be raised by the same 5 degrees in that direction (from models that assume infinite flat ground in all directions). ON the other hand, if the ground slopes downward you LOWER the take-off angle pattern by the same degree amount. You will have no control over the far field topography and will simply have to live with it. You CAN control the over-all efficiency of your TX antenna, and move to more sophisticated RX arrays....or if you have the energy time and money, use a remote antenna site! 73 Bob Zavrel, W7SX > From: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > Subject: Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2 > To: hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:00:06 -0400 > > Send Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list submissions to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-request at hizantennas.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions-owner at hizantennas.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. HiZ3 and low angles (Steve Flood) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:54:41 -0600 > From: "Steve Flood" > To: > Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles > Message-ID: <005001cda8dd$54466230$fcd32690$@bresnan.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > So after 10 years using the K9AY loops, I bought a HiZ3 triangle setup and > installed it about 6 weeks ago. > > > > My initial observations with morning DXing on 160m these past weeks (NH8S, > 3D2C, 9M2AX, RW0CR, HL5IVL) are as follows: > > > > 1. The directivity is wonderful when I first tested it on daylight AM > BCB stations and early morning 160m stateside and DX. > > 2. The gain level is quite high compared to the K9AY. 160m band noise > is S3-S5 on the HiZ. The same band noise on the K9AY (with 13dB preamp) > would rarely move the S-meter. > > 3. The K9AY would always hear better than my omni vertical or my 80m > dipole, without exception. This is especially true for the NE path to > Europe where the vertical or dipole would not hear EU stations at all.. > > 4. While listening to the DX stations over the past weeks, signals were > as good on the dipole and omni vertical as they were on the HiZ, even while > the HiZ showed excellent directivity. > > > > In an email conversation with W7IUV, he explained the HiZ has a very low > notch angle - around 20 degrees or below. This is evident on the EZNEC > plots. > > The K9AY notch is more like 25 to 50 degrees depending on ground conditions > and termination resistance. I wish I could set up both the K9AY and HiZ for > comparisons but I don't have the space. > > > > Here's the upshot: I am surrounded by mountains that block my horizon up > to 20 degrees to my NE, 14 degrees to my SW, and 10 degrees to my NW and SE. > > I am wondering if perhaps the HiZ is not the best antenna to use for my deep > valley location, since most all of the signals I am going to hear are at > higher angles. > > Is this why I have not had an "Oh Wow!" moment yet with the HiZ? > > > > Thanks for any tips, > > Steve KK7UV > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list > Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com > http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com > > > End of Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions Digest, Vol 20, Issue 2 > ************************************************************ From k7tjr at msn.com Sat Oct 13 16:08:33 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 13:08:33 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles Message-ID: Hello Steve, Your observations of the following stations are all to the West of you. It has been my observation that the angles here in the NW steadily progress higher as the morning progresses. Especially early in the season as we are now. You are correct that the Hi-Z arrays are lower angle arrays than most and I have seen here in the west that as the morning wore on the signals would get better on the higher angle arrays and the larger TX antenna. I believe that you may find that when you have the array look in the other directions during the common darkness across the US you should see a drastic improvement over the TX antenna with the array. Also to the West you should find that VK and ZL stations that get on late in the evening will show a considerable improvement. One other thing of note is that you should check your background noise on the array. You may find that the array may tend to pick up any local power line interference easily. This can mask signals and limit the capability of the array. I encourage you to switch to the A.M. mode on your RX and carefully look for any hum or carrier components to the background noise. Be sure to give the array a chance in the Eastern direction. There has been terrible propagation lately but maybe you could listen for Herb KV4FZ or others for a different sort of test. In most cases we are aware of the 3 element outperforms the K9AY loop for DX chasers. Lee K7TJR My initial observations with morning DXing on 160m these past weeks (NH8S, 3D2C, 9M2AX, RW0CR, HL5IVL) are as follows: 1. The directivity is wonderful when I first tested it on daylight AM BCB stations and early morning 160m stateside and DX. 2. The gain level is quite high compared to the K9AY. 160m band noise is S3-S5 on the HiZ. The same band noise on the K9AY (with 13dB preamp) would rarely move the S-meter. 3. The K9AY would always hear better than my omni vertical or my 80m dipole, without exception. This is especially true for the NE path to Europe where the vertical or dipole would not hear EU stations at all.. 4. While listening to the DX stations over the past weeks, signals were as good on the dipole and omni vertical as they were on the HiZ, even while the HiZ showed excellent directivity. The K9AY notch is more like 25 to 50 degrees depending on ground conditions and termination resistance. I wish I could set up both the K9AY and HiZ for comparisons but I don't have the space. From mikewate at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 16:10:18 2012 From: mikewate at gmail.com (Mike Waters) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How does this product compare with a good Beverage antenna? 73, Mike www.w0btu.com From k7tjr at msn.com Sat Oct 13 16:26:08 2012 From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 13:26:08 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] HiZ3 and low angles Message-ID: Take a look at this from Hi-Z website. There are many variables in your question. "http://www.hizantennas.com/receiving_antennacomparison_char.htm" Lee K7TJR 73, Mike How does this product compare with a good Beverage antenna? 73, Mike From AA4MM at embarqmail.com Mon Oct 15 02:29:59 2012 From: AA4MM at embarqmail.com (Leo Drescher) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 06:29:59 +0000 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] newbie Message-ID: <507BAD67.6060102@embarqmail.com> just got my 4-8 array working again.will be looking foward to exchange info and results with others. From contact at hizantennas.com Sat Oct 27 13:37:53 2012 From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:37:53 -0700 Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] CQWW Message-ID: <015501cdb469$cd602b50$682081f0$@com> Good LUCK ALL. 73 Dick KO7N