From gm0udlandrew at gmail.com  Wed Oct 12 06:27:46 2011
From: gm0udlandrew at gmail.com (Andrew Cowan)
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:27:46 +0100
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions
	Digest, Vol 12, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1317225604.5821.hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com@hizantennas.com>
References: <mailman.5.1317225604.5821.hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com@hizantennas.com>
Message-ID: <4E956BA2.6080101@gmail.com>

Lee,  Just back from hols with the kids.

I have upped the voltage from the shack and it did reduce the imd when 
on 160m last night.
I measured the voltage at the pre amps at the base of the verticals and 
they read a bit low what would be the voltage range seen at them?
When you confirm the voltages I can set up the system to read 14.5 at 
the controller and make improvements if necessary at the base pre amps.
Thanks for the info, the system has highlighted a fault with my 40m 4 
square which I need to fix it has no gain the NW as the rx system beats 
it, you can't have enough ants..
I can capture a picture of the products on my SDR to show you when I get 
things tuned up and then reduce the voltage to show it if you want?


Andrew   GM0UDL


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 09:52:19 -0700
From: "Lee K7TJR"<k7tjr at msn.com>
To:<Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Filter needed for sure
Message-ID:<COL102-DS25F540D40D36D59DDF8F99F5F00 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

   Whenever there are IMD problems in a Hi-Z array, one should first make sure there is adequate supply voltage at the controller. The IMD capability is directly related to the Voltage available. We can run as high as 14.5 VDC at the controller. If the level drops below 13.8 VDC The capability is compromised. Also if any foilage or insects breach the insulators on the Hi-Z elements the system can be compromised, It took quite a while for one of our customers to find the expired spider.
Lee  K7TJR

------------------------------






From thorntonash at comcast.net  Thu Oct 20 12:34:52 2011
From: thorntonash at comcast.net (thornton ash)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:34:52 -0400
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations
Message-ID: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>

I installed an 8 element system late last spring and had limited time to use it before it all had to come down for the XYLs gardening season. The testing at that time was inconclusive on 80 & 40 compared to my full size 80M and 40M 4-Squares. This system was built on an 84' diameter. 

I put the system back up this September and until late September, again the results were inconclusive. I was not particularly worried as after 20 plus years I am use to the 4-Squares underperforming until later in the fall when the angle lowers. As the fall progresses I am seeing significant improvement in the front-to-back and front-to-side discrimination. Now that we are in mid October I am starting to see improvement in readability on the long haul 80 and 40 DX stations compared to the 4-Squares. So far it is not always the case, for example, it was apparent yesterday with the 3XY1D on 40 and this morning on 80 with the TX7M.

I would be interested in anyone else's observations.

73,

Thorny
W1FQ




From thorntonash at comcast.net  Thu Oct 20 12:51:29 2011
From: thorntonash at comcast.net (thornton ash)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:51:29 -0400
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Observations
Message-ID: <4850BCB9-F7A2-4A79-B2A1-0A671507362F@comcast.net>

I meant to say, for example,  the readability improvement over the 4-Squares was noted on the TX7M and 3XY1D



From thorntonash at comcast.net  Thu Oct 20 12:41:02 2011
From: thorntonash at comcast.net (thornton ash)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:41:02 -0400
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations
In-Reply-To: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
References: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <F126901E-EAF5-4920-BC1C-564C3DBCA011@comcast.net>

I meant to say, for example,  the readability improvement over the 4-Squares was noted on the TX7M and 3XY1D



On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:34 PM, thornton ash wrote:

> I installed an 8 element system late last spring and had limited time to use it before it all had to come down for the XYLs gardening season. The testing at that time was inconclusive on 80 & 40 compared to my full size 80M and 40M 4-Squares. This system was built on an 84' diameter. 
> 
> I put the system back up this September and until late September, again the results were inconclusive. I was not particularly worried as after 20 plus years I am use to the 4-Squares underperforming until later in the fall when the angle lowers. As the fall progresses I am seeing significant improvement in the front-to-back and front-to-side discrimination. Now that we are in mid October I am starting to see improvement in readability on the long haul 80 and 40 DX stations compared to the 4-Squares. So far it is not always the case, for example, it was apparent yesterday with the 3XY1D on 40 and this morning on 80 with the TX7M.
> 
> I would be interested in anyone else's observations.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Thorny
> W1FQ
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com




From daraymond at iowatelecom.net  Thu Oct 20 13:48:00 2011
From: daraymond at iowatelecom.net (David Raymond)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:48:00 -0500
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations
References: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <A2290DC7FD66418CA057B7C77DDBFD57@radiocomputer>

I have the 160m Hi-Z 8 circle receiving array here along with full size 
transmit four squares for 80m and 160m.  I live in a very low noise location 
with almost no manmade noise.  Today, for example, with the 160m four square 
pointing JA, the S meter on the FT1000MP is not even lit with the 250hz 
filter and noise blanker off.  My biggest source of noise during the day is 
distant electric fences.  At night the fence noise is overcome by 
atmospheric noise.

I have found that high performance, low noise antennas with very good RDF 
don't always make a significant improvement in very low noise environments. 
I've had single Beverages (limited to about 190m in length), end-fire phased 
Bevs, and now the 8 circle array.  Comparative receive performance 
(ultimately s/n ratio) between the 8 circle and the TX antenna varies from 
signal to signal, day to day, high angle vs. low angle, etc.  I have found 
that the 8 circle will beat the TX antenna about 20%-25% of the time.  The 
rest of the time they are on par with each other.  At our contest station, 
N0NI which is about 25 miles away, the general noise floor is somewhat 
higher with manmade noise being a factor.  We have a variety of receive 
antennas there including wide-spaced phased Bevs on EU, JA, plus some single 
wire and two-wire Bevs in other directions along with a Hi-Z four square. 
The 8 circle will hold it's own with the wide spaced phased Bevs (RDF of 
about 13 db) which is pretty remarkable.  The 8 circle consistently "out 
hears" the wide spaced 4 square TX array and a second TX four square by 
several db s/n (enough to be very noticeable).  Putting the 8 cir in 
diversity with the wide spaced phased Bevs (they "hear" rather differently) 
makes for tremendous RX capability. . .enough that sometimes we think the 
four squares aren't working (why isn't that guy hearing us?).

Lee and Dick would be better able to comment on testing the 8 circle array 
(those guys are extremely competent and helpful).  With two 8 circle 160m 
arrays to have experience with, I would say you should see at least 30 db 
f/b on your 8 circle array (we see about 34 db f/b on our two arrays).  If 
you're seeing that (or more), it's working.  Where the 8 circle array really 
shines in my own circumstances is those four directions (N, E, S, & W) where 
it can be aimed which are in between the four directions of the four square 
TX arrays (NE, SE, SW, & NW).  In those directions it will beat the TX four 
square every time.  This has been evident the past week listening to H40KJ 
(listening due west from Iowa).  YMMV.

73. . .Dave
W0FLS
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "thornton ash" <thorntonash at comcast.net>
To: <hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 11:34 AM
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations


>I installed an 8 element system late last spring and had limited time to 
>use it before it all had to come down for the XYLs gardening season. The 
>testing at that time was inconclusive on 80 & 40 compared to my full size 
>80M and 40M 4-Squares. This system was built on an 84' diameter.
>
> I put the system back up this September and until late September, again 
> the results were inconclusive. I was not particularly worried as after 20 
> plus years I am use to the 4-Squares underperforming until later in the 
> fall when the angle lowers. As the fall progresses I am seeing significant 
> improvement in the front-to-back and front-to-side discrimination. Now 
> that we are in mid October I am starting to see improvement in readability 
> on the long haul 80 and 40 DX stations compared to the 4-Squares. So far 
> it is not always the case, for example, it was apparent yesterday with the 
> 3XY1D on 40 and this morning on 80 with the TX7M.
>
> I would be interested in anyone else's observations.
>
> 73,
>
> Thorny
> W1FQ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com 




From contact at hizantennas.com  Thu Oct 20 22:05:36 2011
From: contact at hizantennas.com (contact)
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:05:36 -0700
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations
In-Reply-To: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
References: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4EA0D370.5090702@hizantennas.com>

Hi Thorton,

I waited to see if anyone else would chime in.  I have the original 
prototype 4-8 s/n 001.  The only difference would be that mine gets used 
for testing and evaluating new stuff, for example the Hi-Z Amp PLUS6s. 
Right now I have one group of 4 elements with the standard Hi-Z Amps and 
the the 4 element with the PLUS6 prototype amps s/n 001,002,003 AND 004 
HI HI..

I have noted similar response. My Hi-Z 4 too exhibited less performance 
early in the season and as the season grew the pattern would improve. 
Why? Hum, ground characteristics, maybe, could be the condition of the 
band(s), but every year it always stabilizes. btw: I have seen similar 
results over at Lees, the eastern test range.

We tested the Hi-Z 4-8PRO against the Hi-Z 8 on 160 and as expected, 
there were two differences. One was the 8 could hear a little better, 
but then it has about 1.2-1.5 better RDF response. The directional 
patterns of the big 8 is more crisp and very sharp.

One other observation when VP8ORK was on, was listening night after 
night on 80 meters with the staggered Hi-Z Amps and PLUS6s. What was 
interesting was that the true AZ was between 2 directions. On the 
direction with the Hi-Z AMP standard the SNR was several s-units. When I 
switched and was on the heading where the PLUS6 was used, the noise 
floor was virtually unchanged and the SNR jumped up as predicted just 
about one full s-unit.

My recommendation is watch how it performs as the season proceeds.

Cheers / 73  Dick  KO7N

On 10/20/2011 9:34 AM, thornton ash wrote:
> I installed an 8 element system late last spring and had limited time to use it before it all had to come down for the XYLs gardening season. The testing at that time was inconclusive on 80&  40 compared to my full size 80M and 40M 4-Squares. This system was built on an 84' diameter.
>
> I put the system back up this September and until late September, again the results were inconclusive. I was not particularly worried as after 20 plus years I am use to the 4-Squares underperforming until later in the fall when the angle lowers. As the fall progresses I am seeing significant improvement in the front-to-back and front-to-side discrimination. Now that we are in mid October I am starting to see improvement in readability on the long haul 80 and 40 DX stations compared to the 4-Squares. So far it is not always the case, for example, it was apparent yesterday with the 3XY1D on 40 and this morning on 80 with the TX7M.
>
> I would be interested in anyone else's observations.
>
> 73,
>
> Thorny
> W1FQ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com
>



From thorntonash at comcast.net  Fri Oct 21 08:32:50 2011
From: thorntonash at comcast.net (thornton ash)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 08:32:50 -0400
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] Obsevations
In-Reply-To: <4EA0D370.5090702@hizantennas.com>
References: <1C80CE0E-A70E-477B-87DB-FF1724403318@comcast.net>
	<4EA0D370.5090702@hizantennas.com>
Message-ID: <85CCEC19-36A7-4EE9-86B0-3DC0C86A1D63@comcast.net>

Thanks Dave, Dick,

Appears we are all see similar performance. I agree, the directional discrimination of the 8 element array over the transmit 4-Squares is very apparent in almost every instance as the DX conditions improve. For new users it is important  they understand this as trying to test the system on local or short haul signals can be very confusing. I ended up checking my connections multiple times just to be sure all connections were correct! 

73,

Thorny
W1FQ


On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:05 PM, contact wrote:

> Hi Thorton,
> 
> I waited to see if anyone else would chime in.  I have the original prototype 4-8 s/n 001.  The only difference would be that mine gets used for testing and evaluating new stuff, for example the Hi-Z Amp PLUS6s. Right now I have one group of 4 elements with the standard Hi-Z Amps and the the 4 element with the PLUS6 prototype amps s/n 001,002,003 AND 004 HI HI..
> 
> I have noted similar response. My Hi-Z 4 too exhibited less performance early in the season and as the season grew the pattern would improve. Why? Hum, ground characteristics, maybe, could be the condition of the band(s), but every year it always stabilizes. btw: I have seen similar results over at Lees, the eastern test range.
> 
> We tested the Hi-Z 4-8PRO against the Hi-Z 8 on 160 and as expected, there were two differences. One was the 8 could hear a little better, but then it has about 1.2-1.5 better RDF response. The directional patterns of the big 8 is more crisp and very sharp.
> 
> One other observation when VP8ORK was on, was listening night after night on 80 meters with the staggered Hi-Z Amps and PLUS6s. What was interesting was that the true AZ was between 2 directions. On the direction with the Hi-Z AMP standard the SNR was several s-units. When I switched and was on the heading where the PLUS6 was used, the noise floor was virtually unchanged and the SNR jumped up as predicted just about one full s-unit.
> 
> My recommendation is watch how it performs as the season proceeds.
> 
> Cheers / 73  Dick  KO7N
> 
> On 10/20/2011 9:34 AM, thornton ash wrote:
>> I installed an 8 element system late last spring and had limited time to use it before it all had to come down for the XYLs gardening season. The testing at that time was inconclusive on 80&  40 compared to my full size 80M and 40M 4-Squares. This system was built on an 84' diameter.
>> 
>> I put the system back up this September and until late September, again the results were inconclusive. I was not particularly worried as after 20 plus years I am use to the 4-Squares underperforming until later in the fall when the angle lowers. As the fall progresses I am seeing significant improvement in the front-to-back and front-to-side discrimination. Now that we are in mid October I am starting to see improvement in readability on the long haul 80 and 40 DX stations compared to the 4-Squares. So far it is not always the case, for example, it was apparent yesterday with the 3XY1D on 40 and this morning on 80 with the TX7M.
>> 
>> I would be interested in anyone else's observations.
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Thorny
>> W1FQ
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
>> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
>> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions mailing list
> Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions at hizantennas.com
> http://mail.hizantennas.com/mailman/listinfo/hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions_hizantennas.com




From sv1aoz at yahoo.gr  Fri Oct 21 17:00:27 2011
From: sv1aoz at yahoo.gr (=?iso-8859-7?B?xezs4e3v9d7rIMrl8eH05tzq5/I=?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:00:27 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] H40KJ and 4sq
Message-ID: <1319230827.2671.YahooMailNeo@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hi Lee
Maybe due to the local restrictions that Jacek (H40KJ) had,he did not placed the 4sq system,
but the 4sq was the only way so I can hear him.
I am one of the three Greek stations that worked,but the other two have long beverages
and live in rural areas.
To overcome the problem with BCI (665khz-150KW,981khz-250KW)15 km away from me
I constructed traps tuned to frequencies of the BC stations and I put these at the inputs of
the HI-Z amplifiers.
The system now has a tremendus perfomance without any interfering signal.
I agree with others that they have recently notice a large increase in F/B and F/S possibly
due to the continuous rainfall in my area.
The whole system is remotely operated,located about 1 km away from my home, and I control
remotely the array from my shack over the internet.
Near my 4 sq there are not transmitting antennas but of course is in a residential area.
I hope to send you some photos soon.
73 
Manolis? SV1AOZ

From sv1aoz at yahoo.gr  Fri Oct 21 17:12:25 2011
From: sv1aoz at yahoo.gr (=?iso-8859-7?B?xezs4e3v9d7rIMrl8eH05tzq5/I=?=)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:12:25 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] H40KJ and 4sq
Message-ID: <1319231545.14323.YahooMailNeo@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Sorry for omitting it,but I am of course refferring to 160m.
73
Manolis SV1AOZ

From k7tjr at msn.com  Sat Oct 22 00:56:33 2011
From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:56:33 -0700
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] H40KJ and 4sq
Message-ID: <COL102-DS14B1A54AAE574759E37508F5E90@phx.gbl>

  Wow, congratulations Manolis! Well done. We are most intrigued with your successes in using the trap filters in your system. We are also very interested in hearing more about your remote installation. 
   If you would not mind sharing your trap designs please send them to contact at hizantenas.com . We may later publish them with your permission for any folks having issues with BCI.
    Thanks for sharing your success.
Lee  K7TJR 

From k7tjr at msn.com  Sat Oct 22 01:24:27 2011
From: k7tjr at msn.com (Lee K7TJR)
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:24:27 -0700
Subject: [Hi-zreceivingarraydiscussions] lightning protection
Message-ID: <COL102-DS15BD4177ABBFD26B9A9173F5E90@phx.gbl>

   I believe we may have improved our systems ability to handle the energy from close lightning strikes. I know there are rumors out there and they are somewhat true. We have found 3 separate issues. One is that our transient diodes on the CTRL switching lines were being destroyed by induced currents. We have increased the size of those didoes and installed MOV devices across each one. So far knock on wood we have not seen any more damage to the diodes. The second item is if the system is powered and the relays in the HI-Z amps are open the FET devices and there clamping diodes can be damaged from static discharge. The only way to prevent this is to turn power off to the array during threatening storms. This has been a minimal problem. Yes, it is true we have lost a few FETs but what we have found is a third item where the Hi-Z amps were being destroyed by an induced transient on the 75 ohm output RG-6 line from the amp. We have designed some protection for this and so far we have been successful with no further damaged FETs directly attributable to this problem. We have modified all production to include these mods and have been installing them in any units that come in for service. One unfortunate individual that must live in the lightning capital of the world endured amp damage 3 times in as many weeks. Now after the mods we have heard of no more damage. Whew!
  Any one needing more information can contact us directly as we are trying to document the mod procedure now so anyone experiencing probles can take advantage of the changes. This problem from our perspective has been a very small percentage of the units in the field. Contact us if you would like us to mod the units here. We are trying to figure out an equitable way to acoomplish this at a minimum cost to both parties. Again, not everyone will need these mods. We hope to get an application note up on the web soon with the change information also. 
 Thanks to every one for the tremendous support. You never know what we might come up with next!
Lee  K7TJR